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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
http://seatonsound.net/

By Mark Seaton

F18
SubMersive in several options
Terraform XL - possibly not in production anylonger... but would be a formidable adversary

Providing the awesome option of master(amp)-slave
 

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Discussion Starter #2

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I think this is a good idea, starting a new, consolidated Official Seaton Sound Subwoofer thread. It was done with JTR and @cannga has done great job keeping the opening posts up to date.

I'm guessing that @bulls wants me to be "that guy" by reserving post #2 for me (he is a busy guy).

BTW it is @Mark Seaton with a K, not to be confused with Marc Alexander with a C.

AVS threads:

Seaton Sound Submersive1


Seaton MFW-15 Turbo SS



Seaton F18+ Subwoofers, Axpona 2017http://www.seatonsound.net/mark/HT-SubMersive/F18/Axp-F18-4prep-5.jpg

Seaton Sound Forum threads (ordering/product info):

Product Listing, Availability, Status and Pricing

New F18 SubWoofer F18+ & F18


Blemishes, B-Stock, Blowouts and Specials


Finish Options - a Collection of Photos

Speakerpower amplifier guide/info
 

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Discussion Starter #5
corrected, thanks Marc with a c :)

Just saying, you about these threads right?
this thread is general for the Seaton subwoofers, there's a separate Speaker thread as you mention, ... just like other companies have separate threads
 

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I am getting ready for delivery of my Lyngdorf MP-50 processor (any day now). I have changed the orientation of my front F18s to eliminate SBIR. This also allowed me to pull my rack out 5" for wiring access and aligning CC with main L/R.

The black oak does not appear that much different than black maple… until the light hits it just right!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
is your response response better with them facing sideways?
 

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is your response response better with them facing sideways?
It should be. I haven't measured yet. When I measured previously with PSA S1500s the difference was above my front crossover frequency of 60Hz. I am going to be sealing the ports of my Mirage OMD-28 mains and experimenting with higher crossovers (between 90-150Hz). This is in an attempt to take advantage of the frequency range of the F18s and nearfield MBMs, the advanced bass management capabilities of the Lyngdorf as well as its voicing tool.

If you are not familiar with Speaker-Boundary Interference Reflections checkout this link: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

These considerations apply mainly to main L/R speakers and front subwoofers but it can affect any placement near a wall (nearfield not so much, you will want the driver as close to the MLP as possible). I usually rotate subs ±90° to see what affects it has.

Josh Ricci of data-bass.com has been known to face drivers directly into walls or corners.

Ricci said:
I wouldn't say that I swear by it, but I usually do place them this way in most cases. What it does help with is smoothing the bass in the crossover region and the upper bass range. >70Hz. Works more effectively with bigger cabinets. Typically helps fill in one or two dips related to reflections from the driver to the walls and back to the driver position by placing the driver in much closer proximity to the boundaries so that this is pushed up much higher in frequency completely out of the bass bandwidth. Technically it may also help lower distortion a tiny amount as well.
IME, most often the effects of small boundary distance differences are negligible and aesthetics win out.
 

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Great idea, as there are so many more Seaton Sound subwoofer products than the Submersive. I'm a long-term Seaton Sound customer, owning multiples of Submersive HPs, F2s, and currently, eight F18s. Love these products--throwing up some photos below!







 

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Very nice @BrolicBeast ! Are you using the rack amplifier and all passive/slave F18s?
Thanks! Yes indeed!!! Rack amp w/ 8000w of power, with all F18 models passive. What a dream to tweak (in if ever needed, service) the subs from a single location. Shots below:



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IMO, the F18+ system is the most flexible subwoofer system ever conceived. The active/passive configurations, the vertical stackability, the compact form factor… I almost forgot about the Designer Series.
Hi bscool,

Quickly following up, the subs you were asking about are these new models from the Designer Series as I described above. The DS18-12 is 30" x 26" x 12.5" deep, while the DS18-20 is 20" x 20" x 23.5" deep. The DS18-20 can also be loaded as a powered + unit, but most often we expect they will be powered externally. For most of our customers here I would recommend sticking with the F18 design unless these dimensions are very beneficial. While we will offer these direct, they were conceived with system designers, installers, and integrators in mind. We run these in much smaller batches and largely per order. They will be a bit higher cost and priced with shipping included and magnetic grills optional. Art Sonneborn received the first of the DS18-20 units as seen in the link above, while the first pair of DS18-12 units are headed to the "LOGE" theater for AVS member Lasalle which is currently in construction. The whole point here is for these units to allow this level of performance to fit in places most substantial subs might not. This is a product line that will expand significantly over the coming year, including some options intended to only be used with or in unique ways with the latest high performance surround processors such as Trinnov's Altitude models and DataSat's RS20i.

While I know it's popular and fun to lust and banter over the biggest, baddest, and most obscenely sized boxes available, the right location with a very good sub almost always sounds and performs better than a big brute in the wrong place. Fitting in the right locations to help awesome projects like Art Sonneborn's room sound even better is exactly why I've worked up products like these. :cool:







 

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Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low. Using Data-bass the Epik is similar in output(little less from 40-60hz and more output above that) compared to the Submersive and you can see the UM18 against it. So another take on how they compare.

I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something. I know Ricci used a much more powerful amp than the F18 uses.

So if you want to compare how the F18 compares to other subs on Data-bass I would use the Um18 but take off some up in the higher FR for the higher amplifier power Rikki used. Like compare the UM18 to the Cap 2 on Databass and add 6dB for 2 F18 against the Cap2 to make it equal. Not perfect but gives you a rough estimate and a visual to make it easier to see and compare.
 

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Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low. Using Data-bass the Epik is similar in output(little less from 40-60hz and more output above that) compared to the Submersive and you can see the UM18 against it. So another take on how they compare.
The response shape, behavior beyond CEA limits, and distortion characteristics make the F18 and Empire extremely different performers which would sound drastically different and subjectively have very different maximum capabilities.

I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something. I know Ricci used a much more powerful amp than the F18 uses.
The amplifier in the F18 delivers more than the 89V RMS used in the long term compression sweeps. Unfortunately environmental conditions mean most any of these measurements will have 1-2dB of variation either way simply testing on different days and especially depending on temperature and how long a black box has been baking in the sun. I am thinking it would make sense to spray test units white to make thing easier for who ever is running the test. While measurements taken at one location and the same time can often be very useful for direct comparison, holding tight enough tolerance to compare to other testers across the country requires a much higher level of precision and calibration in gear.

Based on the testing I have done, we get a smidge more in some ranges, and a bit less in others as I don't allow the driver to go into harsh overload, and above 40Hz we aren't dumping 200-450V into the driver, which you can't easily do in real use anyway. One data point which correlates very well with my own measurements is the very low distortion above 30-35Hz as see in the Data-Bass Total Harmonic Distortion measurements. If you look at the chart listing out CEA maximums, the drivers we use will not run into the mechanical noise limit Josh noted on the 31.5Hz & 40Hz burst testing. A soft limit there vs a hard, offensive one makes for quite the subjective difference in listening.

So if you want to compare how the F18 compares to other subs on Data-bass I would use the Um18 but take off some up in the higher FR for the higher amplifier power Rikki used. Like compare the UM18 to the Cap 2 on Databass and add 6dB for 2 F18 against the Cap2 to make it equal. Not perfect but gives you a rough estimate and a visual to make it easier to see and compare.
Generally agree here if you're looking primarily at CEA maximums.

I know this summer Josh has had limited time to test subs, and I have been talking with one industry acquaintance who might be up for performing such testing as an independent lab for hire. Since acoustic measurement and design is his livelihood it can't be free or such low cost testing as Data-Bass has done, but he might have a longer test window through the year than Josh's latitude dictates and could possibly get to products much more quickly.
 

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Marc measured the F18 at his GTG but I think his below 20hz # are a little low.
While the Dayton UMM-6 microphone had the measurement headroom I was looking for, it has some extreme rolloff starting just above 20Hz. While the CSL calibration curve corrects down to 5Hz it also raises the noise floor and added an element of innacuracy to my measurments. That needs to taken in consideration for the ≤20Hz measurements as I don't believe a simple correction curve could be simply applied to the results. The lower the frequency (≤20Hz) and the lower the SPL level the more innaccurate the CEA-2010 result. I do believe ≥25Hz to be fairly accurate. Environmental and other factors still could lead to measurement variabilities.
I know Marc A and Mark S have said the F18 has more output than the UM18 but looking at the Data-bass numbers I don't see it when compared to Marcs measurements. Maybe I am missing something.
I may have mis-conveyed what Mark has said on this subject. Seaton Sound has stringent requirements on the driver parameters than if you were to buy off-the-shelf for DIY. They also touch up some details to maximize longevity and reliability. The mitigation of driver-to-driver and batch-to-batch variabilities as well as the DSP tuning should account for more clean output capability vs an off-the-shelf driver/DIY system.

In the future I plan to test a F18 vs a DIY UM-18 (running a 2400W Speakerpower amp from Mark's B-stock, which utilizes an older DSP which does not allow for all of the tweaks made for the F18+).
 

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Great thread!

Question for everyone since I haven't been able to find the info on my own. I know Seaton isn't about dB racing, but does anyone have an estimate of the CEA-2010 performance of the F18? Or some other way to gauge its performance in a large room?

I have a large room at ~5000 cu ft and love what everyone says about Seaton SQ, as well as what I see in the fit and finish. The issue is I could really only get one master/slave pair, and I'm not sure it would be enough output.

Thanks!


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When we did the Spring SoCal Subwoofer GTG (a task I still need to complete), the area was about 7500ft³. Surprisingly, the ported Rythmik FV18 and JTR Captivator 118HT filled the space at and slightly above reference which I did not anticipate a single sub would do. We compared a stack of two F18s which was the majority favorite. @Pulloutchamp likened it to "listening to bass in a vacuum".

I don't know what your preferences and goals for the room are. I do believe that two F18s in your room would be similar to @indebtbassfreak 's dual JTR S1s in his room (which disturbs the block). For me, 2 would be my starter pack with a goal of eventually having 4 or even 6 (two stacks of 3).

What subs have you had in the space and what are your impressions? What are your visions for an upgrade?
 

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I am getting ready for delivery of my Lyngdorf MP-50 processor (any day now). I have changed the orientation of my front F18s to eliminate SBIR. This also allowed me to pull my rack out 5" for wiring access and aligning CC with main L/R.

The black oak does not appear that much different than black maple… until the light hits it just right!
Nice looking mains, what are they?
Save
 

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@bscool - Thanks for all the info, very helpful!

@Mark Seaton - Thanks for the additional commentary, much appreciated!

@Marc Alexander - Thanks for performing and posting all those tests. I read through that GTG thread and it was super helpful in regards to the three main ported subs I was considering.

Right now I have dual PSA XV15se's and they sound pretty stellar IMHO. Originally I had envisioned going for the most TR I could get (JTR Cap), but then I saw the "bass vacuum" comments and figured I better at least investigate this option.



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