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Yes, I agree that an integrated solution would be best, and only a fall back of a separate box.
I actually think the opposite. To me, it's similar to when I had my first cheesy stereo with the record player and the tape deck built together all in one unit. Then I got separate components.

I want each component to focus on what it does best. I believe Lumagen and MadVR will always do DTM way better then JVC or Sony ever could. Let each company focus on what they know best.
 

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I think you're making a pretty big assumption here.

Dynamic Contrast and Dimming only have to look at the overall brightness of the frame.

From what I'm starting to understand with the Lumagen and MadVR, Dynamic Tone Mapping is highly algorithmic and intensive. There's scene detection algorithms, analyzing intra-frame information, etc. I think it's easy to say that it should be easy for Sony to implement and that the projector has the horsepower to do so. I think it's more involved than it seems on the surface.

Chris
Not really.

The Dimming is mostly brightness based (APL most likely) but it is still frame by frame and the Contrast Enhancer is a frame by frame gamma manipulator (algorithmic too I suspect) which is in essence what Tone Mapping is to HDR as I understand it.

The Reality creation uses an algorithm and a database to enhance images on the same basis and I am sure some of that could be leveraged in too, for DTM.

If any device can static tone map and has to measure anything on a frame by frame basis, then DTM is doable in short order, I would say.
Applying a tone map on a frame by frame basis requires speed rather than space I think, as everything to display ANY static tone map is already present. It just needs to be able to alter it on the fly and quickly.

Space could be used to buffer the signal to work out the tone curve if horsepower *is* lacking, but it would add lag. Luckily I don't think games require DTM as each frame is rendered on the fly by the PC/Console and the low lag therefore wouldn't be affected.

You have many frame by frame technologies onboard already too:
Dynamic Contrast Enhancer
Dynamic Dimming
Reality Creation
Motion Flow

I think it is doable with the current tech and I hope I am right. ;):D
 

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I actually think the opposite. To me, it's similar to when I had my first cheesy stereo with the record player and the tape deck built together all in one unit. Then I got separate components.

I want each component to focus on what it does best. I believe Lumagen and MadVR will always do DTM way better then JVC or Sony ever could. Let each company focus on what they know best.
Absolutely and I agree with this in the most part, except, when it can be done on one device effectively.

Using the display to do it isn't a stretch either, as it has to do most of what is being asked already and therefore will not become more of a 'jack of all trades' because of it.
 

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Sigh...never mind. I've been a software engineer for 25 years. And I am the first to admit I don't know everything. I never presume.

But I will presume this: it's easy for people to come along and say "that should be easy to implement". Hell, my bosses do this to me every day. People don't appreciate how difficult certain tasks can be.

Most of what you're saying is just guessing.
 

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I actually think the opposite. To me, it's similar to when I had my first cheesy stereo with the record player and the tape deck built together all in one unit. Then I got separate components.

I want each component to focus on what it does best. I believe Lumagen and MadVR will always do DTM way better then JVC or Sony ever could. Let each company focus on what they know best.
Lumagen and madVR/Envy will certainly be better, but many are not up for spending $5,000- $10,000 plus calibration. Another issue... is the picture proportionally better to the huge $ spent? Many would say the cost is too high. I may get the Envy at some point, but I would like to see what Sony can do. I think integration will be the way Sony will first attempt to go if feasible. If not, or if significantly better result can be obtained by a Sony external DTM box, I would hope they would consider this option. There will always be specialty super expensive boxes (Lumagen or Envy) that perform very well as cost no object devices.... that is a given. We are talking about other free or lower cost options that are better to have than not. My statement is NOT a Sony DTM solution vs Envy or Lumagen.
 

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The Lumagen is the best piece of equipment I own. I struggled for a while deciding whether to buy it; I wish I had done it sooner.
 

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The Lumagen is the best piece of equipment I own. I struggled for a while deciding whether to buy it; I wish I had done it sooner.
What’s the deal with the he Lumagen boxes in terms of DTM, they don’t make a big deal of it in their marketing it’s all about upscaling. Are most people using these to do HDR to SDR conversion? I’m trying to understand the benefits.

How much setup and calibration do they need ?

Thanks
Gary
 

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What’s the deal with the he Lumagen boxes in terms of DTM, they don’t make a big deal of it in their marketing it’s all about upscaling. Are most people using these to do HDR to SDR conversion? I’m trying to understand the benefits.

How much setup and calibration do they need ?

Thanks
Gary
The Lumagen DTM is excellent. It's leagues beyond anything that any projector can do natively. I am doing HDR in an SDR container ("conversion") and having the Lumagen do all the tone mapping. It's wonderful.

They need a fair amount of setup. I haven't had my system calibrated yet, so I'm using some defaults still. The dealer I bought the Lumagen from did an initial setup for me and it was fairly plug-and-play.
 

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I agree with @fatherom. After looking at the work (many revs) that has gone into the Lumagen (I have one) and what the MadVR guys are doing I just don't see the in-the-pj approach getting you there to the level that people that put this kind of money into a projector typically want. Maybe down the road but even if Sony brings a solution, I wouldn't count on them to rev it like Lumagen and MadVR have been doing (including LUTs); that just isn't what they do. Competitively they will likely come with something but we'll just have to see how good it is at these price points.

Yes, I agree that an integrated solution would be best, and only a fall back of a separate box. No particular SSP. If a box is needed then it going after the SSP (I.e. Storm, McIntosh or Trinnov) may keep the complexity and cost of the box down.
 

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The Lumagen DTM is excellent. It's leagues beyond anything that any projector can do natively. I am doing HDR in an SDR container ("conversion") and having the Lumagen do all the tone mapping. It's wonderful.

They need a fair amount of setup. I haven't had my system calibrated yet, so I'm using some defaults still. The dealer I bought the Lumagen from did an initial setup for me and it was fairly plug-and-play.
That might be so, but the fact of the matter you are forced to buy an overpriced device that can do so much that most people seeking DTM don't care about. I don't care about DVD upscaling. I don't care about input switching. There is nothing I'm looking for other than DTM. DTM was added as an afterthought, recently, with no HW update needed. So paying over 10k for something to just do DTM is ludicrous. And to say that Lumagen are specialists in that area seems odd too, given it didn't exist on the device prior to end of last year.

DTM is something that EVERY display device should be able to handle, and is definitely in the space of a display device. The fact they can't is more an indictment of what an utter cluster this whole 4k hdr era has been from day one, where all these ridiculous people seem to think that a light cannon is what makes 4k HDR great. I'm so sick of hearing NITS. My iris has one setting at any moment in time, and if I'm looking at a bright area on the screen with equivalent to looking at a 2000 lumen torch, I'm not going to see ANY dark level detail on the picture unless I close one eye and put my thumb up in front of the bright spot. Most people don't even know what DCI-P3 coverage is, let alone the fact that the colors the 4k format is capabile of even greater color space, and that all these light cannons they buy are only capable of 100% coverage of REC709. DTM might have become overlooked in this stupid NIT seeking as anyone watching something leaving retinal afterimages is not going to notice any nuance.
 

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That might be so, but the fact of the matter you are forced to buy an overpriced device that can do so much that most people seeking DTM don't care about. I don't care about DVD upscaling. I don't care about input switching. There is nothing I'm looking for other than DTM. DTM was added as an afterthought, recently, with no HW update needed. So paying over 10k for something to just do DTM is ludicrous.
I didn't pay anywhere close to that price for my Lumagen.
 

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That might be so, but the fact of the matter you are forced to buy an overpriced device that can do so much that most people seeking DTM don't care about. I don't care about DVD upscaling. I don't care about input switching. There is nothing I'm looking for other than DTM. DTM was added as an afterthought, recently, with no HW update needed. So paying over 10k for something to just do DTM is ludicrous. And to say that Lumagen are specialists in that area seems odd too, given it didn't exist on the device prior to end of last year.
Simply because you don't see the value in something doesn't make it over priced. I've a couple clients who have added additional units to other primary displays in the house after seeing the picture improvements in their theater. I had clients do the same after an audio calibration, and invited me back into their home to improve the sound in Living rooms, home office systems, etc. I guess some people would call me fees over priced though.

The Radiance Pro existed long before DTM was added. 21 point greyscale and 3D LUTs are incredible tools on any display. DTM tends to be more useful on projectors, with their lower light output. There are also quite a few other features that made the Radiance Pro highly successful prior to DTM. And then DTM was added, with no additional hardware upgrades, and no cost. In my view, it only increased the value of the Radiance Pro.

Until the madVR Envy is released, Lumagen is the only box doing true DTM, so I'd say they were the current experts/specialists.
 

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Look to be about £5k in the UK (https://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?product=lumagen+radiance+pro+video+processor+), but still, it is a lot considering I’d be buying it for one feature and it’s something else to calibrate.

Tho, I’m tempted, HDR performance on the 760 can be disappointing at times.
Yeah it is a huge investment, and a lot of mucking about configuring for one thing that the display should handle. I might bite eventually, but wish there was a simpler solution. Including Projectors handling it in terms of Dolby Vision and HDR 10+...
 

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Sigh...never mind. I've been a software engineer for 25 years. And I am the first to admit I don't know everything. I never presume.

But I will presume this: it's easy for people to come along and say "that should be easy to implement". Hell, my bosses do this to me every day. People don't appreciate how difficult certain tasks can be.

Most of what you're saying is just guessing.
Your suggestion it isn't easy (whilst well informed) is just as much a guess in all reality as me saying that it may be easy.
I never said it *would* be easy either, but it should be a damn sight easier with all these other processes/features already in operation, rather than having to code it or integrate it from the ground up.

Truth be told neither of us will ever know how easy it may or may not be. ;)
I still think everything required to make it happen is already in place however.

If I am wrong I am wrong and it will be a crying shame for owners of devices costing over 15k (in any region) that they may not get this game changing tech if it is not actually possible.

Another option if that ended up being the case; An upgrade path.
Pay a reasonable sum for a mainboard upgrade to one's unit rather than buy a whole new unit. (Which is also more sustainable).
That could be another route as per the 1000/1100 upgrade and would be easy to implement for all the current models as they (bar the 5000) all share the same main board. :cool:
 

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I agree with @fatherom. After looking at the work (many revs) that has gone into the Lumagen (I have one) and what the MadVR guys are doing I just don't see the in-the-pj approach getting you there to the level that people that put this kind of money into a projector typically want. Maybe down the road but even if Sony brings a solution, I wouldn't count on them to rev it like Lumagen and MadVR have been doing (including LUTs); that just isn't what they do. Competitively they will likely come with something but we'll just have to see how good it is at these price points.
Interesting view point when so many JVC owners are saying how much of a game changer a free DTM update ;)has been on their projectors....
 
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Simply because you don't see the value in something doesn't make it over priced.
With respect, that is absurd.
It is precisely when you don't see the value of something, that any price applied to it is over priced.

Also, what value something has, and whether it is considered over priced, is a truly subjective notion.

:)
 
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That might be so, but the fact of the matter you are forced to buy an overpriced device that can do so much that most people seeking DTM don't care about. I don't care about DVD upscaling. I don't care about input switching. There is nothing I'm looking for other than DTM. DTM was added as an afterthought, recently, with no HW update needed. So paying over 10k for something to just do DTM is ludicrous. And to say that Lumagen are specialists in that area seems odd too, given it didn't exist on the device prior to end of last year.

DTM is something that EVERY display device should be able to handle, and is definitely in the space of a display device. The fact they can't is more an indictment of what an utter cluster this whole 4k hdr era has been from day one, where all these ridiculous people seem to think that a light cannon is what makes 4k HDR great. I'm so sick of hearing NITS. My iris has one setting at any moment in time, and if I'm looking at a bright area on the screen with equivalent to looking at a 2000 lumen torch, I'm not going to see ANY dark level detail on the picture unless I close one eye and put my thumb up in front of the bright spot. Most people don't even know what DCI-P3 coverage is, let alone the fact that the colors the 4k format is capabile of even greater color space, and that all these light cannons they buy are only capable of 100% coverage of REC709. DTM might have become overlooked in this stupid NIT seeking as anyone watching something leaving retinal afterimages is not going to notice any nuance.
Well said.
 

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Look to be about £5k in the UK (https://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?product=lumagen+radiance+pro+video+processor+), but still, it is a lot considering I’d be buying it for one feature and it’s something else to calibrate.

Tho, I’m tempted, HDR performance on the 760 can be disappointing at times.
From the viewpoint of only wanting DTM, then 5 grand plus for a Lumagen, when JVC supplied it for free? No thanks.
Sony can, and will I am sure, do better.
The amount of doohickeys one could shoehorn into the video chain is crazy.
Minimising items in the chain should be top of 'anyone who loves purity's agenda surely. Just like purists with HiFi gear where shortest signal paths and even tone controls are frowned upon.

Personally, apart from very occasionally having to tweak the image during an HDR movie, (which projector DTM would basically solve), in my setup I don't find HDR disappointing much at all on my 760. :cool:
 
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