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i had the two side by side in my house. The 930d motion is much better, it isn't close. That's not to say the other one is bad, but Sony motion handling is the best I've seen.

It's easy enough to see. Just watch a long pass in football, a good portion of the time the ball will rainbow ghost into the field behind.

Or you can go back and reference the extensive motion testing I posted in the ef9500 thread. Those scenes in hobbit that I talk about are crystal clear on Sony and are not faithfully reproduced on ef9500.

IMO motion handling is probably the most important spec of all. Most any high end tv can be calibrated for perfect color. Black levels are really important, but less so if you do not have a light controlled viewing environment....

Can't wait to get a look at the z9 myself, if the black levels and blooming are under control my 930d's days are numbered
To be fair, the EF9500 is a generation behind and was probably conceived as a design at least 1-1/2 years ago. Motion perception is a more subjective parameter than contrast ratio, but it probably should be considered somewhere within the ISF hierarchy.
 

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Now the main difference between HDR10 and Dolby Vision HDR is that Dolby uses "dynamic metadata" while HDR10 uses "static metadata" (SMPTE ST-2086). The difference between "Static" metadata and "Dynamic" metadata is that "Static" metadata sends only one set of values to the display to describe the entire HDR movie (e.g. the max nit value of the brighter highlights in the movie) whereas "Dynamic" metadata sends a different set of values for each scene or frame of the movie (e.g. a particular dark scene in the movie might have a maximum brightness of only 50 nits).

Additionally, at least in the case of Dolby Vision, the capabilities (which they refer to as their "golden reference values") of the specific Dolby Vision enabled TV is taken into consideration (e.g. its max peak brightness). These "Golden Reference Values" are what the "tone mapper" uses to map the Dolby Vision content down to the capabilities of the specific Home Display.

Hope this makes sense.

:smile:

Richard
It makes perfect sense. Thank you for the concise explanation. It also makes sense that you "get what you pay for" ......... free versus a licensing fee :)
 

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Actually, @CCsoftball7 is absolutely correct.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision both use SMPTE ST-2084 PQ (Perceptual Quantizer) EOTF (Electro-Optical Transfer Function) which is a logarithmic-like curve that replaces gamma in image encoding. The PQ curve can go up to 10,000 nits maximum peak brightness.
Still, the differences will be subtle in a prime home theater environment (read, darkened) unless you want to blow your eyeballs out.
The whole point of HDR is to try and reproduce the world around us as accurately, realistically, and detailed as possible on a display.
Maybe in theory but in actuality so far? More oftentimes than not, it's been used as a showcase to demonstrate asinine levels of brightness. It's still early days where it's mostly used as an attention-grabber, so I realize the best is yet to come.
In order to accomplish this, TVs need to be able to display those "specular highlights" as accurately as possible - and yes, this requires TVs with high peak brightness levels. (Sorry "current" OLED owners.) HDR capable TVs are only going to get brighter and brighter in the coming years.
No big deal, as long as HDR10 in its current static incarnation gets kicked to the curb by content providers. On the flipside of the coin, "current" (whatever that means) OLED owners also get to enjoy the benefits that come with pixel level brightness control. I realize that many have conveniently ruled that out as not being necessary or desirable now that Sony has achieved a de facto 700 zones (a stunning technical achievement, I freely admit).
If the TV clips those brighter details, then everything above 800 nits will appear "white" and you will lose all detail in those brighter areas of the image. If the TV, through proper "tone-mapping", rolls-off those brighter details, say starting at 600 nits, then all the information above 800 nits will be essentially "squeezed" into the 600-800 brightness levels (through re-mapping of those values) and those brighter details will be retained - they just won't be as bright.
Have you seen how brought 600-800 nit specular highlights are in a dim to unlit environment? Even if a TV had a 1000 nit or higher capability, it is not at all hard to fathom owners wanting to tone down this capability in order to reduce the risk of eye strain. This is why I consider HDR10 to be in a beta state given there is nothing in the consumer market that can compare to the specifications of the professional displays upon which content gets graded.
Now the main difference between HDR10 and Dolby Vision HDR is that Dolby uses "dynamic metadata" while HDR10 uses "static metadata" (SMPTE ST-2086). The difference between "Static" metadata and "Dynamic" metadata is that "Static" metadata sends only one set of values to the display to describe the entire HDR movie (e.g. the max nit value of the brighter highlights in the movie) whereas "Dynamic" metadata sends a different set of values for each scene or frame of the movie (e.g. a particular dark scene in the movie might have a maximum brightness of only 50 nits).

Additionally, at least in the case of Dolby Vision, the capabilities (which they refer to as their "golden reference values") of the specific Dolby Vision enabled TV is taken into consideration (e.g. its max peak brightness). These "Golden Reference Values" are what the "tone mapper" uses to map the Dolby Vision content down to the capabilities of the specific Home Display.

However, as mentioned, there is talk of adding "dynamic metadata" (SMPTE ST-2094) to HDR10. When this does happen, HDR10, depending on how well this is implemented, will probably look very similar to Dolby Vision. It will certainly narrow the "gap" between the two.
Yes, and the gap will also be narrowed for the displays that don't go "quite" as bright because as you yourself stated, instead of blown-out highlights, you'll get an accurate representation of specular highlights at a still impressive brightness level for any serious (which I qualify as light-controlled) home theater viewing. I only see the 1000+ nit displays being particularly desirable when there is a considerable degree of undefeatable ambient lighting. Otherwise the potential for eye strain grows.

Nobody should buy any set this year of either competing display tech pinning their hopes on the incorporation of dynamic HDR10 via firmware updates. In fact, this option was only announced mere months ago. You are setting yourself up for buyer's remorse if you put faith in a manufacturer's "best effort" for a feature not defined within the specifications.
 

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Huge F1 fan here. Got the Belgian GP recorded and will be watching it on the Z Tuesday. I'll be comparing with the 940d, which I am not impressed with any 720p/1080i xfinity content or NBC Sports streaming app. F1 looks very soft in the 940d. So hopefully the Z makes up for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
on the 65z9, i've found that setting the "reality creation" option to "auto" really helps to clean up and sharpen my compressed HD uverse channels. not sure if it works the same on the 940D.
 

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Finally got my Panasonic 4K player and was watching mad max fury road in HDR...looks phenomenal!!! Favorite HDR moment is when they drive into the sandstorm...intense to watch
what picture mode and settings are you using for HDR? ive mainly been using standard mode. after experimenting with the hidden HDR pluge pattern on sony discs, i lowered contrast to ~82, which shows a clipping point of ~2k nits (purportedly). i either turn off motionflow or set it to "true cinema". i turn off or reduce some of the other enhancements, as well.
 

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Finally got my Panasonic 4K player and was watching mad max fury road in HDR...looks phenomenal!!! Favorite HDR moment is when they drive into the sandstorm...intense to watch


Very good news :)considering there has been some concern with this Panny Player and 10Bit Color Panels
Quote:
Originally Posted by HD2k15
Panasonic DMP-UB900;
IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL OWNERS!
As some owners might have noticed, this UltraHD blu-ray player does not have the ability to output 10bit colour, which in turn creates some extremely annoying banding and macro-blocking issues on 10bit displays.
The player will only output in 8bit or 12bit colour which has caused many frustrations for owners of TVs such as Samsung & LG.
Please support us by signing this petition in order to assist Panasonic to recognize how important this is for UltraHD blu-ray and its customers.
 

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just a friendly reminder this is an owners thread for the Z9: non owners are welcome too, if they have questions or comments about the Z9

if non owners have questions or comments about OLED or other displays, this is not the thread:

this is the owners thread for the Z9

Thank you
 

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what picture mode and settings are you using for HDR? ive mainly been using standard mode. after experimenting with the hidden HDR pluge pattern on sony discs, i lowered contrast to ~82, which shows a clipping point of ~2k nits (purportedly). i either turn off motionflow or set it to "true cinema". i turn off or reduce some of the other enhancements, as well.
When you say standard mode for HDR, are you saying the TV stays in the actual standard mode, or are there different levels of an HDR mode? I know on my 75 850C that I sold, the TV only had one HDR mode and it would kick in whenever an HDR signal was being sent. Is this not the case for this TV, or are there more than one HDR mode like on the LG's?
 

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Yep, sounds about right. I really don't mind that it's not flat. As I said my only real complaint is that along the bezel there's a tiny, tiny gap between the front plastic and this top layer. No impact on PQ at all, just cheapens the display build-quality IMO.

Still no screen time today :(

However last night I tried turning on my TV and it refused to connect to HDMI 2. Weirdly, the input button on the remote wouldn't work, and when you navigated to HDMI 2 through the menu the screen went black and it said "Guide cannot be found" (with OK and Try Again as options). Then after pressing OK it went back to the home screen. I unplugged the TV and plugged it back in to force a restart and it worked normally the second time.

Anyone else seen this?

Conclusion: the current version of android TV is buggy. I'm going to post a bug report with the Google.
It appears things have not changed with the OS. I just recently mentioned that IMO, aside from viewing angles, the Android OS is the biggest weakness of these Sonys. It was buggy on my 940c from day one and apparently the latest version is no different.

Just a few nights ago my 940c spontaneously rebooted while navigating the apps. Although some firmware updates had improved it, for some reason it has gotten bad again over the last month. :(
 

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what picture mode and settings are you using for HDR? ive mainly been using standard mode. after experimenting with the hidden HDR pluge pattern on sony discs, i lowered contrast to ~82, which shows a clipping point of ~2k nits (purportedly). i either turn off motionflow or set it to "true cinema". i turn off or reduce some of the other enhancements, as well.
Vincent how did you find the clipping at 2k nits was this measured? I'm still waiting to find out the Z9 max nits

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It appears things have not changed with the OS. I just recently mentioned that IMO, aside from viewing angles, the Android OS is the biggest weakness of these Sonys. It was buggy on my 940c from day one and apparently the latest version is no different.

Just a few nights ago my 940c spontaneously rebooted while navigating the apps. Although some firmware updates had improved it, for some reason it has gotten bad again over the last month. :(
I had to unplug my 940c a few days ago to get 3D working. Not sure if it was an android issue or a TV issue. I use my uhd blu-ray for streaming instead of the TV, so I have far fewer issues now.
 

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There are MANY people who can't detect bad motion or genuinely don't care about it. If you mention bad motion on this forum I'd say the majority of people will say MY TV doesn't have that issue. They'll all but call you insane when you point out the difference between plasma and LCD motion. There are people who can't detect colors but they don't seem to be as defensive as the "motion blind" people on this forum. I can only conclude that they aren't faking it and that they just can't detect good motion vs. bad motion but feel compelled to insist that those who can are being too picky or are imagining it or haven't bothered to "tweak" their motion settings on the TV yet. Turning off motion enhancement often helps but doesn't turn and LCD into a plasma or CRT for motion.


Frankly since motion is MORE important than gravity absorbing blacks, I think that is how every review should start with motion quality. Since not everyone seems to have motion perception, professional reviewers should just use a friend who does notice motion if they don't have the genetics to detect motion.
I've found that many motion issues area actually content issues. Since compression is strongly a function of how much each frame changes, the providers remove much of the smooth motion prior to compression. I sometimes wonder if they repeat frames. You think you're watching 30 unique fps when you're really getting 10 unique fps.
 

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When you say standard mode for HDR, are you saying the TV stays in the actual standard mode, or are there different levels of an HDR mode? I know on my 75 850C that I sold, the TV only had one HDR mode and it would kick in whenever an HDR signal was being sent. Is this not the case for this TV, or are there more than one HDR mode like on the LG's?
there's no separate HDR mode. when HDR content is played, the set will keep your current picture mode but max out backlight and contrast. while these and other settings will appear to be grayed out, all settings can be changed. i find sony's implementation fairly confusing.
 
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