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^^^

I think that my friend Ken is much too modest. His thoughts are never ignorant, in my opinion. :)

But, this subject interests me, so I decided to look at the Data-Bass results for the PB13, compared to the SB13. The 4000 Ultra and 16 Ultra models will have essentially identical results to the 13 Ultras below ~16Hz. At 12.5Hz, the SB13 and the PB13 (in 15Hz mode) have almost exactly the same max SPL. Then, between 12.5Hz and 10Hz, the PB13 rolls-off by about 5db more than the SB13 does. So, the only difference in low-frequency extension between these two subs is literally at ~10Hz.

https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=61

There are two aspects to consider when evaluating how meaningful that 5db difference at 10Hz is. First, how much 10Hz content is there, and second how do we perceive 10Hz content? As for the first, about the only isolated 10Hz content I know of is the 10Hz sine wave in the intro to EOT, and the PB4000's should knock that out of the park in a small room.

Based on everything I have read and experienced, we don't usually hear frequencies below ~16Hz, except with headphones and isolated test tones. Instead, we hear some of the low-fundamentals of notes and their harmonics (overtones), and that is particularly the case with complex sounds rather than sine waves. Most of what we perceive below ~20Hz, and certainly below 16Hz, is probably tactile sensations, with some low-fundamentals and upper harmonics.

The consensus on most of the bass threads where I have seen this discussed, is that significant SPL into the mid to low teens is the most important goal. I have heard a number of people who have output into single digits say that having it is more a matter of bragging rights than it is of creating a substantive improvement in their HT experience. I am not offering that as a definitive statement, just noting it for what it's worth. This is a YMMV issue.

People who enjoy having sealed subwoofers, and who get sufficient bass sounds and sensations, are probably lucky in that their subs are typically much smaller than the equivalent ported versions. But, people who crave more max output at low-frequencies, and more corresponding tactile response than sealed subs can produce, should not actually be giving up much if any low-bass, compared to their sealed counterparts, where the PB4000's and PB16's are concerned. And, they will get much more bass down to 16Hz, and below, before simply equaling the sealed subs at ~12Hz.

Especially in a small room, where the very low-frequencies will be strongly amplified by room gain, if someone is daring enough to go with ported subs, I don't think that he will be missing out on anything at all, except perhaps some plaster from the walls. :eek::p Just kidding (I think) about that part.

Regards,
Mike
 

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I am now wavering on replacing the sealed subs with their ported counterparts but in a less than 1700 cubic foot enclosed room, that may be overkill. At any rate, somebody please talk me out of that. I have only had the SB16s for seven months and I have no complaints. it's just that you never know what you may be leaving on the table.

My room is just a little smaller and can be closed off. I just recently switched my PC12+ to sealed mode and so far have not noticed any lack of low end bass or tactile response. I think it sounds better overall. In 16hz mode there were times that it sounded a little out of control, maybe too much in the 20hz range.



I need to re-watch some of the bass heavy movies again but so far I really like what I hear in sealed mode. When I finally get around to replacing my not so super cube it will be with another PC12+ or hopefully a PC3000 or a PC4000 and run it in sealed mode. At least I will have the option of sealed or ported then.

I also like the down firing design.
 

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Plan on ordering one of the PB 4000's this week and was curious about connecting it. I've always just used a standard RCA cable to plug into my floor subs and there's already one in place, but was curious if I'd see noticeable results using one of the XLR inputs over that method. Any real difference? Just trying to figure out if I should run now now while I wait. Thanks
 
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Plan on ordering one of the PB 4000's this week and was curious about connecting it. I've always just used a standard RCA cable to plug into my floor subs and there's already one in place, but was curious if I'd see noticeable results using one of the XLR inputs over that method. Any real difference? Just trying to figure out if I should run now now while I wait. Thanks
Good question, my AVR does not have balanced XLR. I have a Hafler stereo amp and pre/amp that does. I just used RG6U coax with gold RCA from Monoprice from my AVR to my PB 13 Ultra. . No humming etc dead quiet and not expensive. Maybe someone with a balanced system will post up.
 
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Plan on ordering one of the PB 4000's this week and was curious about connecting it. I've always just used a standard RCA cable to plug into my floor subs and there's already one in place, but was curious if I'd see noticeable results using one of the XLR inputs over that method. Any real difference? Just trying to figure out if I should run now now while I wait. Thanks
Good question, my AVR does not have balanced XLR. I have a Hafler stereo amp and pre/amp that does. I just used RG6U coax with gold RCA from Monoprice from my AVR to my PB 13 Ultra. . No humming etc dead quiet and not expensive. Maybe someone with a balanced system will post up.

Like many, I've often wondered about this as well. To my knowledge, XLR connections have always been used in professional applications...ie. recording studios and stage productions where there are long cable runs and where it would be necessary to reduce noise. Unless there is known electromagnetic interference or extremely long cable runs in home applications/environments, I suspect enthusiasts just want to mimic pro installations. It would be welcomed to get @Ed Mullen to chime in on this. In the interim, I googled and found the following....not very definitive or conclusive.:)



XLR vs RCA – which is best?

It’s very easy to assume that if your equipment has both XLR and RCA connections, that XLR connections are going to be the better sounding connection. It’s not always the case.
The XLR connection carries a balanced signal. The hot pin carries the signal, the cold pin also carries the signal but inverted (think mirror image) and the third carries the earth. At the receiving equipment, any noise that is common to both the hot and cold pins is cancelled out. This makes a lot of sense in recording studios where long runs of cable are often needed to carry the small voltage signal generated by a microphone over (certainly in terms of hi-fi) very long runs of cable.
In a hi-fi system though, where perhaps the longest interconnect is 1 metre and the signal is up to 4 volts, then the need for XLR connections is more questionable.
The most important thing though is sound quality, and this is harder to be certain about. Our experience is that there are systems where the XLR connection sounds better than the RCA connection, and there are systems where the opposite is true.
So with any system that has both XLR and RCA connections, we would recommend that you try both connections and decide for yourself which is the better sounding connection for you. This is also something that your dealer will be happy to advise you on.
 

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Like many, I've often wondered about this as well. To my knowledge, XLR connections have always been used in professional applications...ie. recording studios and stage productions where there are long cable runs and where it would be necessary to reduce noise. Unless there is known electromagnetic interference or extremely long cable runs in home applications/environments, I suspect enthusiasts just want to mimic pro installations. It would be welcomed to get @Ed Mullen to chime in on this. In the interim, I googled and found the following....not very definitive or conclusive.:)



XLR vs RCA – which is best?

It’s very easy to assume that if your equipment has both XLR and RCA connections, that XLR connections are going to be the better sounding connection. It’s not always the case.
The XLR connection carries a balanced signal. The hot pin carries the signal, the cold pin also carries the signal but inverted (think mirror image) and the third carries the earth. At the receiving equipment, any noise that is common to both the hot and cold pins is cancelled out. This makes a lot of sense in recording studios where long runs of cable are often needed to carry the small voltage signal generated by a microphone over (certainly in terms of hi-fi) very long runs of cable.
In a hi-fi system though, where perhaps the longest interconnect is 1 metre and the signal is up to 4 volts, then the need for XLR connections is more questionable.
The most important thing though is sound quality, and this is harder to be certain about. Our experience is that there are systems where the XLR connection sounds better than the RCA connection, and there are systems where the opposite is true.
So with any system that has both XLR and RCA connections, we would recommend that you try both connections and decide for yourself which is the better sounding connection for you. This is also something that your dealer will be happy to advise you on.
In most HT applications, RCA will work just fine. There are times when a really long cable run is required, or it's going in-wall and crossing (or running parallel to) AC power lines, which could potentially create some hum in the line. In situations like those, balanced should be considered if the AVR or pre/pro has XLR outputs.

Aside from the superior noise/hum rejection properties of balanced XLR, there really aren't any sound quality differences between the two connection methods - the signal itself is the same in both cases. Even though balanced XLR has double the voltage, many (but not all) balanced inputs on sub-amps are padded down 6 dB to keep the calibration level the same when switching connection types.
 

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In most HT applications, RCA will work just fine. There are times when a really long cable run is required, or it's going in-wall and crossing (or running parallel to) AC power lines, which could potentially create some hum in the line. In situations like those, balanced should be considered if the AVR or pre/pro has XLR outputs.

Aside from the superior noise/hum rejection properties of balanced XLR, there really aren't any sound quality differences between the two connection methods - the signal itself is the same in both cases. Even though balanced XLR has double the voltage, many (but not all) balanced inputs on sub-amps are padded down 6 dB to keep the calibration level the same when switching connection types.

As always...thanks Ed! That's definitive enough for me.:)
 

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In most HT applications, RCA will work just fine. There are times when a really long cable run is required, or it's going in-wall and crossing (or running parallel to) AC power lines, which could potentially create some hum in the line. In situations like those, balanced should be considered if the AVR or pre/pro has XLR outputs.

Aside from the superior noise/hum rejection properties of balanced XLR, there really aren't any sound quality differences between the two connection methods - the signal itself is the same in both cases. Even though balanced XLR has double the voltage, many (but not all) balanced inputs on sub-amps are padded down 6 dB to keep the calibration level the same when switching connection types.
As always...thanks Ed! That's definitive enough for me.:)
Same here. Thanks a lot, Ed. Ordered! :)
 

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In regards to the SVS app is there anything unique from a dsp standpoint to the default movie and music modes or are they just pre-named presets that you can just customize to whatever you want?

Edit:
I mostly ask because I didn’t think there was anything different between them but I saw this video linked below and Gary mentions the music and movie mode. I’m not sure if he’s referring to factory differences or programming they did for the demo. Go to the end at about 13:20

 
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In regards to the SVS app is there anything unique from a dsp standpoint to the default movie and music modes or are they just pre-named presets that you can just customize to whatever you want?



Edit:

I mostly ask because I didn’t think there was anything different between them but I saw this video linked below and Gary mentions the music and movie mode. I’m not sure if he’s referring to factory differences or programming they did for the demo. Go to the end at about 13:20



https://youtu.be/a3gzgk8GMYI


Funny you ask this...I asked a similar question in the YouTube comments...
 

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In regards to the SVS app is there anything unique from a dsp standpoint to the default movie and music modes or are they just pre-named presets that you can just customize to whatever you want?

Edit:
I mostly ask because I didn’t think there was anything different between them but I saw this video linked below and Gary mentions the music and movie mode. I’m not sure if he’s referring to factory differences or programming they did for the demo. Go to the end at about 13:20

https://youtu.be/a3gzgk8GMYI
There are no differences from the factory settings between the Movie and Music settings. These are Name Presets but the settings are the same for both by default.

I have a comprehensive look at the SVS App in this video.


 

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Yesterday I had a little session with REW and did some measurements. I figured I'd do a few sweeps with the different port tunes for fun and was surprised to see one of my PB16's on "DEFAULT" and the other one on "EXTENDED". Switched the default one back to extended, did a new sweep and sure enough, got a couple of DBs more below 25 or so hz. Even more surprising, I toggled the one that already said "EXTENDED" back and forth and did a new sweep, yep a couple more db's below 25hz.

So basically I've been running my PB16's in "DEFAULT" mode with 1 port plugged for who knows how long. My area has had a few blackouts in the last couple of months, I suspect the loss of electricity could be the culprit?
 

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Hello everyone,
So I went dual. My AVR is really old, and I don't have any room equalization software on it. My iphone isn't the best mic either, and I have been trying to get everything to play together nicely. I backed off the volume for the subs on the AVR to -10, and the gain on the subs are at 1 o'clock. Given the system in my signature is that about right for the settings on the subs, and the AVR? Both subs are on the front side wall of the theater, close in on every side except the back). Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



Sincerely,
Daniel Maldonado
If your AVR lacks auto-set-up, then grab a Galaxy CM-130 SPL meter.

Set the meter at the primary listening position, on C/Slow, at head level, pointed at the front stage, at a 45 degree upward angle.

Set the AVR master volume to reference level (usually 0 dB but check the owner's manual) and then play the test tones and level match all of the speaker channels to 75 dB by adjusting the trim levels in the AVR.

Set the subwoofer channel level to 0 dB for starters and power-up one PB-2000 at a time.

Set sub #1 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Set sub #2 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Turn on both subs.
Set subs 1+2 to 75 dB by lowering the AVR sub channel level (it will probably end-up around -4 to -6).

This will result in the sub channel running about 2-3 dB hot, because a C-weighted SPL meter reads about 2-3 dB low on a typical subwoofer rumble tone.

Demo some favorite source material and assess how the system sounds.
 

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If your AVR lacks auto-set-up, then grab a Galaxy CM-130 SPL meter.

Set the meter at the primary listening position, on C/Slow, at head level, pointed at the front stage, at a 45 degree upward angle.

Set the AVR master volume to reference level (usually 0 dB but check the owner's manual) and then play the test tones and level match all of the speaker channels to 75 dB by adjusting the trim levels in the AVR.

Set the subwoofer channel level to 0 dB for starters and power-up one PB-2000 at a time.

Set sub #1 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Set sub #2 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Turn on both subs.
Set subs 1+2 to 75 dB by lowering the AVR sub channel level (it will probably end-up around -4 to -6).

This will result in the sub channel running about 2-3 dB hot, because a C-weighted SPL meter reads about 2-3 dB low on a typical subwoofer rumble tone.

Demo some favorite source material and assess how the system sounds.
Ed, thank you very much and being so active and vigilant in the forums!

Sincerely,
 

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SB-2000 Calibration question

I just received my (2) SB-2000's last week and ran Audyssey. In the past Audyssey recommended between -12 & +12 as what the trim levels in the receiver should end up at. CLoser to 0 being prefered. I set the master volume control on both subs to 12:00 and the trim came out at 0 which I assumed was a fine place for it to be. After spending this morning reading the Guide to Subwoofer Calibration here I see that now it is recommended to set the subs higher so the trim ends up being somewhere negative around -5 to -9. My receiver is the Denon 3808 and uses Audyssey MultEQ XT and has a single sub out of the receiver using a Y connector to the LFE on the subs. So far the subs sound amazing and I don't usually listen above -15 on the Denon volume scale so not reference level. If I should have the trim in the negative can I just increase the volume control on the sub and adjust down from 0 trim in the Denon without having to re-run Audyssey? Or do I even need to do anything? The reason I ask is because after reading the Guide I wanted to make sure I was getting enough voltage to the sub for best performance. I actually reduced the trim in the receiver after the calibration by 3db anyway. Thanks for the help.
 

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If your AVR lacks auto-set-up, then grab a Galaxy CM-130 SPL meter.

Set the meter at the primary listening position, on C/Slow, at head level, pointed at the front stage, at a 45 degree upward angle.

Set the AVR master volume to reference level (usually 0 dB but check the owner's manual) and then play the test tones and level match all of the speaker channels to 75 dB by adjusting the trim levels in the AVR.

Set the subwoofer channel level to 0 dB for starters and power-up one PB-2000 at a time.

Set sub #1 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Set sub #2 to 75 dB by adjusting the gain at the sub.
Turn on both subs.
Set subs 1+2 to 75 dB by lowering the AVR sub channel level (it will probably end-up around -4 to -6).

This will result in the sub channel running about 2-3 dB hot, because a C-weighted SPL meter reads about 2-3 dB low on a typical subwoofer rumble tone.

Demo some favorite source material and assess how the system sounds.
Ed if the AVR does not have a room correction feature to run the test tones is there a CD that had the test tones on it?
 

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Ed if the AVR does not have a room correction feature to run the test tones is there a CD that had the test tones on it?
Unless the AVR is totally ancient (like Dolby Pro Logic), it will have a manual set-up section in the menu where the internal test tones can be played.

The internal test tones are set to play 30 dB below reference, so the target SPL level is 75 dB when the master volume is set to 0 dB (or whatever reference level is for that AVR).

There are several calibration DVDs floating around which can be used to perform basic level matching (along with a host of other audio/video calibration tests), but they are generally not needed if the AVR has test tones.
 
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Unless the AVR is totally ancient (like Dolby Pro Logic), it will have a manual set-up section in the menu where the internal test tones can be played.

The internal test tones are set to play 30 dB below reference, so the target SPL level is 75 dB when the master volume is set to 0 dB (or whatever reference level is for that AVR).

There are several calibration DVDs floating around which can be used to perform basic level matching (along with a host of other audio/video calibration tests), but they are generally not needed if the AVR has test tones.
Thanks I will Google cal DVD's. I should have explained. I have two systems in my den. I use my Cornwalls (fronts) and PB-13 Ultra with a NAD C162/C272 stereo pre/amp and amp for my turn table and reel to reel. I was thinking of plugging in a second ported sub for neirfield and thought this would be a good way to adjust all four if I had a test tone.
 

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Just got the email for SVS Memorial Day Outlet Sale.

Picked up my third Ultra BS with no damage which with 5% returning customer code, supplied by Brad. The cost is a quite reasonable sum, in my mind, of $ 332.50 :D Should ship tomorrow :D

One more BS and my 7.1 bed of Ultras will be complete :)

Recently got a pair of Prime Elevations which I've been putting in some break in time on before I replace my front Polk heights.. Looking forward to picking up another pair when budget allows and then will be ready for a 7.1.4 layout which may happen towards year end when I hope to get a Denon X6500H.
 

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Definitely some good deals in the outlet for Memorial weekend!


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