AVS Forum banner

33761 - 33780 of 34012 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,879 Posts
Boy, I dont know anything about the MultiEq app but here's a graph I ended up after setting things up in REW. Hopefully the link works.

Well, didn't know you had REW up and running, much better than a MultEQ app graph. ;)

Your response doesn't look that bad at all...at least nothing to explain why you are getting the "deep rumbles" without the mid-bass. You do have a -10dB drop from the low bass (15Hz-50Hz) to the mid-bass (60Hz-100Hz) and a pretty good null at 57Hz, this may be contributing to your impressions, but overall it shouldn't sound that bad. Was this measurement taken from the MLP?

Have you tried moving around the room during bass heavy scenes to see if the bass sounds (or measures) better in other parts of the room?

Your AVR is compatible with the MultEQ app, you should really check it out. It offers you a whole 'nother rabbit hole to explore. :)

 
  • Like
Reactions: b0rnarian

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
Well, didn't know you had REW up and running, much better than a MultEQ app graph. ;)

Your response doesn't look that bad at all...at least nothing to explain why you are getting the "deep rumbles" without the mid-bass. You do have a -10dB drop from the low bass (15Hz-50Hz) to the mid-bass (60Hz-100Hz) and a pretty good null at 57Hz, this may be contributing to your impressions, but overall it shouldn't sound that bad. Was this measurement taken from the MLP?

Have you tried moving around the room during bass heavy scenes to see if the bass sounds (or measures) better in other parts of the room?

Your AVR is compatible with the MultEQ app, you should really check it out. It offers you a whole 'nother rabbit hole to explore. :)

No its not that bad... its actually much worse. I cant even watch anything with half the normal volume without waking the cats in the next neighborhood (while not able to hear any dialogue) and that makes for a very angry wifey including myself when everything starts coming loose in the house meanwhile the sound is crap. And this is at -18db on sub and -3 on reciever. So for now im waiting on svs tech support to move the ticket up to their engineers ppl after tier 1 gave up. Here's hoping!
 

·
AVS ***** Member
Joined
·
8,968 Posts
Mike, I ordered open box PB-3000 from amazon it is arriving on Friday, I am doing some reading in the meantime to set it up!

I have a question. When I see quick start guide for pb-3000 it says - For connection to an AV Receiver, set the PB-3000 volume to -10 in the app (on the rear panel, all but the last two lights illuminated), then run auto-set-up on the AV Receiver. Is it normal because to me it looks like running it hot. Is there a place that gives steps to setup a subwoofer with AV Receiver (Pioneer sc-95 MCACC Pro in my case)?

Thanks

Hi,

That's great! I'm sure that you will enjoy it. The advice that SVS gives is necessarily somewhat generic in nature, as room location, and the physical distance from the MLP, can influence a subwoofer's measured capabilities. But, -10 is probably going to be about as good a starting point as any. Your Pioneer should tell you whether your subwoofer gain is set too high or not, during the auto-calibration routine. If it is, you can always dial it back, and then increase it again post-calibration, if necessary.

Most auto-calibration routines will try to make all of your channels play the same volume. After calibration, almost everyone will want to add more bass. Unfortunately, some experimentation is required with this sort of thing, no matter how much we may try to research or analyze things in advance. I don't have any personal experience with Pioneer AVR's, but the Cliff Notes in the Guide should still be somewhat helpful.

Regards,
Mike
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,824 Posts
Thanks for reply and sorry for the confusing post but its really hard to explain. When I say I am not getting bass from the sub, I mean the overall sound is completely thin without any bass. Music notes, cars driving by, foot steps of Lockdown in Transformers, drums in The Great Wall all seem shallow and not hefty like it should (no meat on the bones if you will). But something with really low frequencies like a horse snarling (beginning of 300 the Rise), it rips the walls open unexpectedly. And that bass I get, its not clean bass, its just a lot of creaks and distortions and almost a juddery sound. Also, the part you quoted - I mentioned in bassy scenes (as in I know this is where bass should be) not where Im getting bass.

DEQ has always made things more robust for me and the issue is just the opposite here but still I will try it out!
And you called it, floor is concrete slab. I have pretty much tried all the settings on the app except PEQ. I will do some research on PEQ as im not all that expert on this stuff just yet. Right now though this sub sounds like a $50 sub, something big is amiss and Im frustrated with the whole thing.
Hi, while not an expert.

The reason, I had suggested to have the DEQ set to Off on your AVR. I suspect the DEQ raise too much some lower frequencies, and the other bass frequencies are not enough. That can be remedy by increasing your overall bass level by a few dB. And this option need to be experiment with since some like it, and others like me do not.

The PEQ option, is a single band parametric Equalizer. A narrow Bandwidth mainly affect the frequency chosen, while a wide one will also affect the ones next to it with a peak on the chosen one. And suggested this one to increase your chest slam. I am still myself, experimenting with 50 and 60Hz with a wide Bandwidth on this one. Both sound good so far, and trying to decide the one I prefer.

Darth
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Hi,

That's great! I'm sure that you will enjoy it. The advice that SVS gives is necessarily somewhat generic in nature, as room location, and the physical distance from the MLP, can influence a subwoofer's measured capabilities. But, -10 is probably going to be about as good a starting point as any. Your Pioneer should tell you whether your subwoofer gain is set too high or not, during the auto-calibration routine. If it is, you can always dial it back, and then increase it again post-calibration, if necessary.

Most auto-calibration routines will try to make all of your channels play the same volume. After calibration, almost everyone will want to add more bass. Unfortunately, some experimentation is required with this sort of thing, no matter how much we may try to research or analyze things in advance. I don't have any personal experience with Pioneer AVR's, but the Cliff Notes in the Guide should still be somewhat helpful.

Regards,
Mike
yes agree that auto-calibration will prompt for right gain on subwoofer during calibration. And with single pb-3000 for now it my need to run a little hot!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
Hi, while not an expert.

The reason, I had suggested to have the DEQ set to Off on your AVR. I suspect the DEQ raise too much some lower frequencies, and the other bass frequencies are not enough. That can be remedy by increasing your overall bass level by a few dB. And this option need to be experiment with since some like it, and others like me do not.

The PEQ option, is a single band parametric Equalizer. A narrow Bandwidth mainly affect the frequency chosen, while a wide one will also affect the ones next to it with a peak on the chosen one. And suggested this one to increase your chest slam. I am still myself, experimenting with 50 and 60Hz with a wide Bandwidth on this one. Both sound good so far, and trying to decide the one I prefer.

Darth
At this point, I am open to anything so next up will try DEQ to Off and see if the beast can me tamed! I am starting to get a little bit better understanding on PEQ and glad you brought up the frequencies next to it. Is it possible to completely cut off certain frequencies altogether? For example, just complete turn down anything below 16HZ or even 20Hz?

As you will see in my graph, even at normal listening volumes, which I consider to be on the louder side, the bass volume hovers between 60-80Hz and is very low for what Im used to but when it comes down to lower frequencies, while im struggling to hear voices, the room starts ripping itself apart and the whole house rumbling driving everyone including me nuts. I think this is the essence of my problem and being able to cut off some of those lower Hz may be the solution here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
966 Posts
If the problem persists, try to get a video (with audio) of the noise and send it to our CS team for review.

Is this obviously audible in the room or barely audible with your ear near the woofer?
i am over 6 ft away and it is noticeable but at a background noise level similar to crickets in my backyard. I will take a video next time i hear it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,941 Posts
Question has been answered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,879 Posts
No its not that bad... its actually much worse. I cant even watch anything with half the normal volume without waking the cats in the next neighborhood (while not able to hear any dialogue) and that makes for a very angry wifey including myself when everything starts coming loose in the house meanwhile the sound is crap. And this is at -18db on sub and -3 on reciever. So for now im waiting on svs tech support to move the ticket up to their engineers ppl after tier 1 gave up. Here's hoping!
I just went back and read all your previous posts on this issue....I missed in your OP that you had a buddy of yours come over to run the REW sweeps. I am assuming that he is a fairly experienced home theater guy, would that be a safe assumption?

What does he think about how your subwoofer sounds? Does he agree that something is way off?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
I just went back and read all your previous posts on this issue....I missed in your OP that you had a buddy of yours come over to run the REW sweeps. I am assuming that he is a fairly experienced home theater guy, would that be a safe assumption?

What does he think about how your subwoofer sounds? Does he agree that something is way off?
Hes a fellow AVF user and didnt come over but has been guiding me for over a year. He's the one who got me to buy a mic and start using REW etc. He thinks just somehow taming with REW and trying different positions etc and minidsp will do the trick and wouldnt listen to me about something major being off the Jerk lol - im sure he's reading this as we speak. He owns two PB12 NSDs and one PB4K.
 

·
Registered
POLK LSI SPEAKERS
Joined
·
472 Posts
Hi All
I just got my PB3000
And find it does not seem to have good bass compaired to my old 8 inch subwoofer!
I don't know what is going on !
Have a Denon 6200 and used adussey
I am very surprised
I only get bass when very loud and it does not sound clean, it distorts
What levels are people setting the SB3000 sub volume at ?
Regards
H
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,824 Posts
At this point, I am open to anything so next up will try DEQ to Off and see if the beast can me tamed! I am starting to get a little bit better understanding on PEQ and glad you brought up the frequencies next to it. Is it possible to completely cut off certain frequencies altogether? For example, just complete turn down anything below 16HZ or even 20Hz?

As you will see in my graph, even at normal listening volumes, which I consider to be on the louder side, the bass volume hovers between 60-80Hz and is very low for what Im used to but when it comes down to lower frequencies, while im struggling to hear voices, the room starts ripping itself apart and the whole house rumbling driving everyone including me nuts. I think this is the essence of my problem and being able to cut off some of those lower Hz may be the solution here.
The way the PEQ work is having a peak at the frequency selected, and gradually affect the one next to-it. This is where the choice of for the Bandwidth is important, and will use 60Hz with a +3dB boost as an example. And the real number will differ!!!;
  • Very narrow;
  • 60Hz will be up by +3dB, 50 and 70hz barely up by a dB
  • While very wide;
  • 60Hz will still be at +3dB, while now 30 and 120z will be barely up by 0.5dB. And 40/100 will be up by a one dB or so, while the 50 and 70Hz are up by around 2-2.5dB
While those numbers are not accurate at all, it should give you an idea on how using the PEQ work. That said all this is assuming you are not sitting in a null for those frequencies, since real null/dip cannot be boost in most case. Unless been very narrow, and when this happen. Our brain have a way to fill the missing ones, next to it.

Last, DEQ add bass the lower frequencies, in a curve similar to the PEQ and will not reduce bass. But only add an amount from your Main Volume from reference, the lower your MV is from calibration the more it add. All this stuff is fairly complicated to explain, and this Guide give a more and detail explanation;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

While been a long read, I strongly suggest you take the time to read-it. The more often the better, to digest all the information's.

Darth

P.S. I cannot see your graph, and fishing in the dark for proper suggestion:mad:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,718 Posts
Hi All
I just got my PB3000
And find it does not seem to have good bass compaired to my old 8 inch subwoofer!
I don't know what is going on !
Have a Denon 6200 and used adussey
I am very surprised
I only get bass when very loud and it does not sound clean, it distorts
What levels are people setting the SB3000 sub volume at ?
Regards
H
I know you said you reran audyssey but with my X3500H, I have found that just rerunning audyssey can sometimes produce poor results. I found that the safest way to get good results was to reset the receiver to factory defaults and then run Audyssey. I have no idea why I had to do this to get better results when I switched subs but it worked for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: b0rnarian

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
Hi All
I just got my PB3000
And find it does not seem to have good bass compaired to my old 8 inch subwoofer!
I don't know what is going on !
Have a Denon 6200 and used adussey
I am very surprised
I only get bass when very loud and it does not sound clean, it distorts
What levels are people setting the SB3000 sub volume at ?
Regards
H
Go back a page and read my posts on the PB3K I just bought, see if this sounds familiar?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
The way the PEQ work is having a peak at the frequency selected, and gradually affect the one next to-it. This is where the choice of for the Bandwidth is important, and will use 60Hz with a +3dB boost as an example. And the real number will differ!!!;
  • Very narrow;
  • 60Hz will be up by +3dB, 50 and 70hz barely up by a dB
  • While very wide;
  • 60Hz will still be at +3dB, while now 30 and 120z will be barely up by 0.5dB. And 40/100 will be up by a one dB or so, while the 50 and 70Hz are up by around 2-2.5dB
While those numbers are not accurate at all, it should give you an idea on how using the PEQ work. That said all this is assuming you are not sitting in a null for those frequencies, since real null/dip cannot be boost in most case. Unless been very narrow, and when this happen. Our brain have a way to fill the missing ones, next to it.

Last, DEQ add bass the lower frequencies, in a curve similar to the PEQ and will not reduce bass. But only add an amount from your Main Volume from reference, the lower your MV is from calibration the more it add. All this stuff is fairly complicated to explain, and this Guide give a more and detail explanation;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

While been a long read, I strongly suggest you take the time to read-it. The more often the better, to digest all the information's.

Darth

P.S. I cannot see your graph, and fishing in the dark for proper suggestion:mad:
Dude, you are a true asset to this thread! I think you hit the nail on the head here... Ed Mullen had me try a bunch of things and even said turn DEQ off but that just trashes the audio overall for me and is not an option at all. I had almost given up. BUT....

What did the trick was putting a PEQ on 20Hz and bring it way down! Now i haven't run rew again since then but it got rid of all the judder and rumble in the house and im finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Otherwise I was ready to chuck the thing out the window (If I could ever pick it up lol). Im finally getting meaty bass across the spectrum while keeping judder and distortions to a minimum. A big improvement so far and will try your recommendations for 50-60 Hz and maybe even 115 Hz PEQ bumps next and see where we go with that.
BTW, I really wish the PEQ option would go down below 20Hz so I could bring down even lower frequencies and preservs some of the Hz in the teens up to say 18Hz or even 20Hz.
PS, im putting the graph in again in case u have luck this time viewing it.
 

·
AVS ***** Member
Joined
·
8,968 Posts
Dude, you are a true asset to this thread! I think you hit the nail on the head here... Ed Mullen had me try a bunch of things and even said turn DEQ off but that just trashes the audio overall for me and is not an option at all. I had almost given up. BUT....

What did the trick was putting a PEQ on 20Hz and bring it way down! Now i haven't run rew again since then but it got rid of all the judder and rumble in the house and im finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Otherwise I was ready to chuck the thing out the window (If I could ever pick it up lol). Im finally getting meaty bass across the spectrum while keeping judder and distortions to a minimum. A big improvement so far and will try your recommendations for 50-60 Hz and maybe even 115 Hz PEQ bumps next and see where we go with that.
BTW, I really wish the PEQ option would go down below 20Hz so I could bring down even lower frequencies and preservs some of the Hz in the teens up to say 18Hz or even 20Hz.
PS, im putting the graph in again in case u have luck this time viewing it.

Hi,

I'm glad that you are getting better results now. To add to the things that you are already trying, you can also try setting a high-pass filter (HPF) to limit the volume of the very low frequencies. As Darth pointed out, DEQ makes the lowest frequencies play louder than the mid-bass frequencies. When DEQ is engaged, 30Hz and below gets double the boost that the range from 70Hz to 120Hz gets.

You could try setting an HPF at about 20 or 25Hz, and you could experiment with different slopes. For instance, a slope of 12 would roll-off the volume by -12dB per octave. So, the volume would decrease symmetrically, by an additional -12dB, for the octave between 25Hz and 12.5Hz. You could try a gentle slope, or a more extreme one, to discover what you like best. For what you are trying to accomplish, I think that might potentially work even better than a PEQ decrease at 20Hz, and adding PEQ boosts to mid-bass frequencies. You actually have a lot of tools in your toolbox. :)

Regards,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,157 Posts
BTW, I really wish the PEQ option would go down below 20Hz so I could bring down even lower frequencies and preservs some of the Hz in the teens up to say 18Hz or even 20Hz.
PS, im putting the graph in again in case u have luck this time viewing it.
I'd also suggest you should use the room gain compensation feature, which I think is a high pass filter.

I measured this a while ago on my PB16, I didn't try all the combinations though.

3027852


edit: forgot to mention, these measurements were done with DynEQ enabled, so there is some low-end boost added from that...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
Hi,

I'm glad that you are getting better results now. To add to the things that you are already trying, you can also try setting a high-pass filter (HPF) to limit the volume of the very low frequencies. As Darth pointed out, DEQ makes the lowest frequencies play louder than the mid-bass frequencies. When DEQ is engaged, 30Hz and below gets double the boost that the range from 70Hz to 120Hz gets.

You could try setting an HPF at about 20 or 25Hz, and you could experiment with different slopes. For instance, a slope of 12 would roll-off the volume by -12dB per octave. So, the volume would decrease symmetrically, by an additional -12dB, for the octave between 25Hz and 12.5Hz. You could try a gentle slope, or a more extreme one, to discover what you like best. For what you are trying to accomplish, I think that might potentially work even better than a PEQ decrease at 20Hz, and adding PEQ boosts to mid-bass frequencies. You actually have a lot of tools in your toolbox. :)

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for explaining this! Ed had suggest this as well and had me try 25Hz HPF with 6db slope and that really did not do anything at all. I am guessing it tamed the frequencies from 25Hz to 19Hz by 6db volume if I am doing the match correctly via your post (in Bold)? An interesting point as bringing down 20Hz in PEQ and setting the HPF the way I mentioned should have accomplished the same goals but maybe it needed to be done on a drastic scale. I have the PEQ db all the way down right now and it seems to work pretty well.

Also, just so Im clear, whatever slope you set always effects the frequencies lower than what you set it to? So 25Hz with 6db slope is going to go down to 19Hz and not 3 db around both ways? And its also bringing the volume down by 6db correct? Learning a lot here!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,141 Posts
I'd also suggest you should use the room gain compensation feature, which I think is a high pass filter.

I measured this a while ago on my PB16, I didn't try all the combinations though.

View attachment 3027852

edit: forgot to mention, these measurements were done with DynEQ enabled, so there is some low-end boost added from that...
Hey I also tried this feature and didnt measure anything but it didnt have the immediate effect i was looking for at the moment so shrugged it off in the heat of the moment but looking at this graph makes me want to give it another shot! Another thing I want to try is do the YouTube frequency test and see exactly whats causing the ruckus in my room/house and try to put the hurt on that but [FINALLY] and surely im moving in the right direction thanks to you guys!

A lot of good info here and a lot of tinkering but the end results dont lie at least by my ears hehe which is what really counts to me, I can graph all day long but its gotta feel and hear good as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: meles
33761 - 33780 of 34012 Posts
Top