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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
just got back. a few interesting things i saw today.


- there were several pjs using the new hd1 chip from ti. marantz, seleco, dwin and sharp where the ones i saw. all look very good. here is the rub. i don't think there is any way to really understand how they look at a venue like this. they are all basically guts so i would not expect dramatic differences in pq. the real diff would likely be in scaling/deinterlacing. i say likely since NOONE seemed to be showing them scaling anything. everyone had the same high def football game on sencore. bright daylight and hd, well of course it looked great.


- dwin seemed to really get the joke. it is a transvision2. it has the scaler and pj as a two piece combo. they claim that since the two are built to work together the signal does not go through two scalers (external and the one on the dlp chip). automatic aspect detection, 10 video inputs (2 comp, 2 S, 3 component, 2 rgb and 1 DVI), two lense choices ranging from 1.5 - 3.5x and two lamp choices (150 and 270W). bottle opener, can opener, screwdriver... features wise it looked good and the pq was excellent with anamorphic dvd and hd.


- marrantz had some trouble in their theatre. i will go back tomorrow and hopefully they can turn the lights down (they lost their amx).


- jvc had a dahlia and it looked very good to me. short clip but it looked good. i am not an expert on dila so maybe someone with more experience will post.


- sony had a G90 running hdnet live. first time i've seen a g90. made me want to puke my guts it looked so good. for $42K it would have to do a lot more than look good though. i just did not see $30K of my money's worth of difference between it and the DLP's. definitely better but i value my money more than that.


- had a great discussion with one of the technical guys at the ti booth. pete broas was there also. they explained to me why the new 12 degree dlp chips give better brightness but not necesarily better contrast. dm3 is the way all of their chips will go in the future (even the non-video chips). if someone wants the details i will post. a little birdy told me (not pete who holds the party line) that they booted up the HD2 chip in the past week. don't expect anything until next fall and noone will talk about what it is other than some mumble about clever ways to improve contrast.


- i went into the atlantic technology booth and they had a dwin that they said was the new dlp and they showed a steely dan dvd. video source ntsc and it looked aweful. obviously they did not intend to show off the video but it thought it was interesting. deinterlacing/scaling is really the name of the game. all of these pj's are getting close. i wish i could see the marantz or seleco with crappy video fed to it.


- seleco had flown the 300 in from italy and turned it on for the first time last night. looked great like the rest. they showed a 3 gun then switched to the 800 x 600 16/9 dlp then to the 300. of course they showed progressive dvd through the svga unit and hd only through the 300. the svga unit had great color but i saw banding that i do not see at home with my much cheaper dlp and a good htpc.


- saw the vutec black screen. damndest thing i have ever seen. in broad daylight on the show room floor the blacks are black. put your hand in front of the pj and it is black. there are two catches. greater than 22 inches and there is a seam. will be a while before they can make larger sizes without the seam. also they are outragiously expensive. a 60" unit is around $5000. very cool though. really geared toward showroom floors and all.


i'm going back tomorrow if you want me to look at anything closer.


you should have come to indy cain. you missed a good one http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


greg


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Why does he shake hands with that guy right after he sexed the alligator


[This message has been edited by indygreg (edited 09-07-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
forgot to mention, the meet and greet was fun. don stewart is a great guy. gave us all candy, calculators and stewart tshirts. nice to meet a few of the folks. i was hoping to find out if thumper looks like the rabbit in bambi or if mr. wiggles is really a pro wrestler. oh well.


did get to meet the famous mark rejhon.


greg


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Why does he shake hands with that guy right after he sexed the alligator
 

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Greg thanks for the post. How would you place the Sharp, Seleco, and Dwin 16:9 in order of preference?


Spero D.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
since they were in different rooms with different conditions and were all showing hd therefore not using any of their internal scaler/deinterlacer it is almost a coin toss. the dwin was looking strong on features for sure. if their deinterlacing is good it would be a winner. this is why it is important to buy from someone like avs rather than trying to make a decision on a show floor. alan and the gang get time with these machines to live with them.


greg


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Compaq MP2800 DLP, 1Ghz htpc w radeon aiw, 45 x 80" diy accoustically transparent screen, lexicon dc-1. ipaq touchscreen for control
 

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Fair enough. You didn't elaborate much on the Sharp. How did you find it in terms of picture quality and fan noise?


Spero D.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i did not get to the sharp booth today. i will go tomorrow. i looked at the sharp in the ti booth and it looked about the same. fan noise is real hard to tell since the booths are all enclosed theatres and they all have big loud air conditioners running in them plus there is always some joker demoing a subwoofer in the booth next door.


they really need a pj shootout where they make them show rotten ntsc stuff. i really think that if one did well without an external scaler that would make it the winner in my mind.


tomorrow i plan to try to do the dlps again and do them back to back to get a better feel for any differences.


greg


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Compaq MP2800 DLP, 1Ghz htpc w radeon aiw, 45 x 80" diy accoustically transparent screen, lexicon dc-1. ipaq touchscreen for control


[This message has been edited by indygreg (edited 09-07-2001).]
 

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Greg.. You Sir are a Gentleman and a Scholar.


Terrific info and just they type I was hoping to read.


If you are going back tomorrow, please try to find out when these projectors will ship, and at least MFG Retail prices.


Also, see if you can find out more about the bulbs they use, cost, life, type etc.


I will stay up half of the night reading and re-reading your post..


I had hoped to come to the show but my work commitments would not allow it, and I have to be in Georgia tomorrow night. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Many thanks again, take care,


-- Cain
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
cain - i will try to get a matrix of list price, bulb type, bulb life, bulb cost, ship date and throw ratio.


you know it is funny. when i was younger i used to go test drive a new car now and then and come home to realize that i liked my car because i owned it outright and it was a good car. i kind of had the same experience. i am not as experienced with a lot of different pj's as some here so i kind of know what i have used. the G90 with hd was gorgeous but i don't have any desire to part with that kind of money. kind of the lamborghini that i never bought. i really liked the hd1 dlp's but on high def source they did not cream my little compaq dlp. i'm sure that side by side they would be better but not a stunning difference. i think that with dscaler and the ati dvd player i am probably at least as good for dvd and ntsc source. i think that for someone who wants a solution with less moving parts (simpler to own and operate) the hd1 dlps are great but i don't think they would change my life much now that i have tricked my dlp with a htpc, dscaler, girder and a panny stb. with all the sweat equity i have put into my solution it is pretty good. maybe 85-90% of the new pj's. i think if i were to spend the money i might buy a dila, a panamorph and go the blood sweat and tears route again. i think it still looked a bit better and i like a bright pj.


btw - you probably know this but i just found out that the panamorph is now being sold exclusively by stewart. it was in their booth (as was shawn) and was installed for demo. probably has been posted here but i was not tracking the panny stuff that close.


greg


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Compaq MP2800 DLP, 1Ghz htpc w radeon aiw, 45 x 80" diy accoustically transparent screen, lexicon dc-1. ipaq touchscreen for control
 

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Hey Greg.


What is the Gain on that VuTec Black screen, or does it have any gain <scratching head>???


-- Cain




[This message has been edited by Cain (edited 09-07-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by indygreg:
- saw the vutec black screen. damndest thing i have ever seen.
Is this a front or rear projection screen?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
they have both. i saw the front screen. wild.


it uses some kind of shelf technology. vertical slats. i picture it like shooting through a venetian shade.


g


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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Cain:
Hey Greg.


What is the Gain on that VuTec Black screen, or does it have any gain <scratching head>???


-- Cain



[This message has been edited by Cain (edited 09-07-2001).]
missed this. it is a 2.5 gain. if they could get rid of the seam and lower the price it would be very cool. i don't know much about vutec.


thought i would add a couple things about my discussion with the ti guy. i asked him about why dlp would win over dila, glv, etc. his spin was that all lcd technology (reflective included) have issues of long term wear. he says they change their properties with heat and time. he also said that the yield is low on lcd which is one of the reasons that others ship defective products. he said that they have a small number of devices with defects but that they trash anything that is not defect free. on the glv question he says that the issue is that it is difficult to put into a projection tv. because it has such a small array it cannot collect very much light (i'm paraphrasing since the actual discussion was done with some drawing of the cones of light). in essence the combination of the fact that the glv has such small surface area and needs light of a uniform wavelength means that they need to power it with a laser. his take was that this meant they needed a breakthrough in solid state lasers to make this affordable since gas lasers would be prohibitive in a consumer projector. does this make sense to anyone on the forum?


greg



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Compaq MP2800 DLP, 1Ghz htpc w radeon aiw, 45 x 80" diy accoustically transparent screen, lexicon dc-1. ipaq touchscreen for control
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by indygreg:
just got back. a few interesting things I saw today.


- Dwin seemed to really get the joke.....

Two lens choices ranging from 1.5 - 3.5x and,

two lamp choices (150 and 270W)........



you should have come to indy cain. you missed a good one http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


greg

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I agree, it seems as if DWIN has been listening the most closely to all the stuff folks like us want to see in a HT projector.


The idea of having the option for a brighter bulb with 1500 Lumens with this new HD DMD chip is so smart it makes you wonder why nobody else thought of it.


Also two lens options, one short throw and the other long throw, how sweet is that..


Way to go DWIN. You folks just sprung up to the top of my list for my first HT projector. (Now if I can just sell my wife's car......... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif )


-- Cain

 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Cain:

[B(Now if I can just sell my wife's car......... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif )


-- Cain


[/b]
i like the way you think.


my only concern with the dwin is i don't know anything about the deinterlacing/scaler. i posted on another thread that i saw it in the atlantic tech booth showing video source ntsc and it looked awful. he claimed it was the new dwin dlp. i need to go back and double check this. i am thinking of taking a video source, NTSC dvd tomorrow and seeing if anyone will play it. if the marantz with the sage chip looks good and the dwin does not that is several thousand dollars and some headaches you could save.


btw - the marantz guys started the show by telling us that they did not know anything. real disapointing when companies send people to these shows that don't know anything. in my session people in the audience where answering the questions for others. maybe the a team just wasn't around when i went through. i plan to try them again tomorrow.


greg




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See the DWIN thread for my questions, but essentially I'm keenly interested in the DWIN projector and all the details about it..


Also, many thanks for the posts and info, you are scooping everybody else!!


I too vote for it to be in Indy next year !!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


-- Cain

 

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I don't know if it can be properly evaluated at a show like this, but I'm still waiting to hear about my two big "issues" with DLP projectors -- rainbows and black levels.


I think scaling can already be knocked one way or the other, using existing technology. Having great built-in scalers is certainly a nice convenience feature, but is not the main roadblock to acceptable performance.


Noise level is important, but this can be mitigated to some extent with hush boxes.


But the killers for me when I compare today's standard XGA 1-chip DLPs to my CRT projector are still rainbows and black level.

[*]Is the rainbow GONE? Not just minimized. Not just harder to see, more fleeting etc. but actually gone?

[*]Black level. In a completely dark room with minimized reflections from the walls and room, on either a 1.3 or less gain screen, does it really do black? Does your hand in front of the projector on a full-black field still cast a shadow? It it's not 100%, where is it on a continuum with today's LT150-level device on one end, and a CRT on the other? What about halos and other in-room light spill?

 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
this is a good idea jim. i will hit some people up today to see if anyone will let me do this experiment. the dwin room could be made pretty dark i think.


you will have to get someone else to look for rainbows. i don't have the gift.


greg


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Compaq MP2800 DLP, 1Ghz htpc w radeon aiw, 45 x 80" diy accoustically transparent screen, lexicon dc-1. ipaq touchscreen for control
 

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Are not all of these new projectors going to be obsolete if you're interested in HDTV - no builtin docoders? What do the manufacturers say?


Cheers,


Grant

 

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****his spin was that all lcd technology (reflective included) have issues of long term wear. he says they change their properties with heat and time.****



Long term wear? As in geological time? We must have 50 notebooks at work, with many 5-6 years old, and the colour is as good as it's ever been!


I think he can't help being a salesman.


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Tertiary adjunct to Unimatrix Zero-One
 
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