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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is for the tinkerer, the experimenter, the person willing to take risk, and time, the end result is video quality that you currently can't buy at a store. There are two components to this setup. First, very specific older used dlp projector's, and second, a madVR capable computer for UHD blu-ray playback.

I think madVR's HDR dynamic tone mapping speaks for itself, so I'll just cover the projectors, but it's UHD blu-rays and madVR(+ a 3DLUT) that unlock another level of image quality from these old projectors(literally 10 year old projectors). They look excellent with SDR, but it's something else entirely to see them display UHD content, and something very few have experience with. See this post which lends support to the notion that these specific optical engines have the capability to display modern content and competitively New Projectors 2020



So why should you care, why not just buy an Epson, JVC, or Sony? First and foremost, it's a great idea to strongly consider those projectors, they're modern fully featured devices that provide excellent image quality. If you consider these older dlp projectors to the liquid crystal versions of the same year and how they would perform with uhd material, it quite literally took 10 years for lcos to catch up, and while superior in some ways, are not so in others.

Digital micromirror devices are something special. The modulation performance, a 0.012ms black to white response. An impulse response, like CRT/plasma, but without the phosphor decay. Every pixel changes state immediately with perfect accuracy, with no motion blur, and an improved persistence due to the impulse response, providing a depth and dimensionality to video that most other display technology cannot replicate. Moving away from the color wheel reduces/eliminates rainbow effect, improves motion persistence as the dmd doesnt shut off like it does between color wheel segments, reduces solarizations, reduces contouring, improves color bit depth, reduces noise, and allows the dmd to perfectly display individual color grayscale(these projectors typically only need a 1 point white balance as grayscale is razor flat). One projector has a color performance and sharpness that you won't find in other projectors, capable of displaying most of the bt2020 gamut. For the 3chip projectors, a contrast rare to dlp with high brightness that will show a very HDR image. The instant black to white response and high ansi contrast enable the sharpness boost and strong highlights of HDRs increased delineation of high frequency to low frequency video information, and the perfect grayscale and lack of voltage overshooting displays low level detail with perfect accuracy.

See http://imagesci.ece.cmu.edu/files/paper/2016/HDRProjector_OpEx16.pdf on high bit depth high frame rate solid state sequential color single chip dlp.


These projector's use Texas Instruments 0.95" DarkChip4(or 3) dmd. The first projectors to keep an eye out for are the Chi Lin OEM LED 1 chip projectors, the Sim2 Mico, EE TruVue Vango, Wolf Cinema DCL-200FD. And high contrast 3chip DLP like the Sim2 Lumis, HT5000, and Runco VX-22D.


The Sim2 Mico is a 1chip projector which uses three Luminus Phlatlight PT-120 LEDs, red, green, and blue, which are cycled in sequence instead of a color wheel. This projector traded light output for color saturation, which was useless 10 years ago, but with UHD content, shows color that you will only see in the new $7k+ rgb laser ust projectors or rgb laser dci projectors like in dolby cinemas. This projector has upgraded optics over other versions, including a substantial lens and diffusing optics for the leds, resulting in very little chromatic abberation. It has gamma-corrected dynamic led dimming. Between the high quality lens, the single dmd, and the high ansi contrast, it has emissive display-like pixel perfect sharpness. Additional specs include:
-550 lumens
-90% bt2020 gamut
-~3,000:1 native contrast, 800:1 ansi contrast, 15,000:1 gamma-corrected dynamic contrast via led dimming. While contrast is lower, due to the increased color saturation, the uniformity, and the high quality optics, the projector has an increased perceived brightness and contrast, it's no exaggeration to say it looks like 700 lumens and 5,000:1 native.
-98-99% full field uniformity
-no misconvergence
-no rainbow effect
-improved perceived pixel fill and resolution

As a note, the low light output will require smaller screen sizes, high gain screens, or high quality expensive horizontal expansion anamorphic lenses.

My best comparative description would be the Mico looks like perfectly converged 3chip DLP with bt2020 color and SXRD native contrast. There is no perceivable difference in brightness in low adl content when switching the dynamic led dimming on and off(while the black level is very clearly improved) as the range is shifted upwards which can result in brightness compression/clipping in some scenes, however, due to the higher native contrast and not so aggressive dimming(5x) it's functionality is very good. It doesn't have the smooth very high contrast full frame black to very low adl transistions of d-ila, but brightness matched it is comparably high contrast in 95% of content.

This post has a breakdown of the LED projectors: Older High End DLP LED

3038506

3038507
3038508

3038509




The Sim2 Lumis doesn't have the high color saturation, but is 3x as bright and has twice the contrast. This is a 3chip projector, with gamma corrected dynamic lamp dimming + an auto-iris. Spec include:
-1500 lumens
-~7,000:1 native contrast, 700:1 ansi contrast, 35,000:1 dynamic contrast

The Runco VX-22D and Sim2 HT5000 have similar light output, slightly lower native contrast, and no dynamic contrast, however, due to the high light output, fixed iris' can be added to the lens to increase native contrast. DLPs contrast curve is linear, and boosts to on/off are boosts to most of the ADL range, resulting in vibrant contrast in most content and a solid black level in dark scenes. The three chip projectors typically only have a bt709 gamut, but some Lumis HC(hyper color) models have a filter to achieve a p3 gamut.


Some additional observations for the Mico and RGB LED projectors:
-The near perfect full field uniformity appears to translate to the individual mirrors as well, improving perceived pixel fill. Screen door effect is reduced despite a 1080p resolution.
-The improved grayscale and reduced noise appear to interact less with gained screen materials, resulting in reduced gain artifacting like sparkle/sheen. The texture of the material and the visible screen plane that it causes are still present, but there is a more uniform image and artifacting is less distracting, this is coming from someone watching alot of anime which is large swathes of bright colors and screen gain has always been a distracting artifact.
-And a quick summary of what specifications to shoot for:
1chip rgb led/laser dlp with 2-3,000:1 native contrast and 90%+ bt2020 gamut
3chip dlp with 1500 calibrated lumens and 4-7,000:1 native contrast.
And a caution: The VX-22D and Ht5000 weight 100 lbs, and bulb life is much shorter.

____
First Edit:
In case anyone is interested, I tried to compile some information on these projectors from reading reviews and threads and talkin with people in pms. These things are older and getting rare but they're very unique projectors and I think still very relevant in terms of video performance, really incredible color performance and great contrast for DLP.
See this post: Older High End DLP LED
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Original Post:
Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.

Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.

I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.

I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.

These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?
 
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Any of those units would be high quality for your needs. I would look for a Barco or PD FL35 as well. It is a little brighter than the 33 and has higher resolution. It also has a lens option that will suit your needs.

For P3 you possible could do a custom LUT with MadVR to get close to the color performance you are looking for I would think.


Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.

Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.

I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.

I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.

These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?

Is this feasible?
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Well digging a little deeper it looks like the q750s minimum throw is 1.59 so I don't think that will fit. The Runco LS3, 5, 7 and marantz vp-11s2 wont fit. I couldn't find any barco/projectordesign/digital projection led projectors for sale. This listing had the en13 lens and got my hopes up https://www.ebay.com/itm/FL33-BARCO-PROJECTION-DESIGN-EN13-LENS-UPGRADE-FLIGHT-SIMULATION-PROJECTOR-/273787532793

Couldn't find the sharp xv-30000 for sale, and i dont think the samsung sp-a900b will fit.

How about the Barco/PD/DP Dvision 30/35, F32/35, Cineo32/35. Quite a few around under $1000 with the en13 lens, would just have to get new bulbs. They're bright though, 3000 to 6000 lumens? Maybe get a new screen like a .1gain black o.o and would probably have to enclose it and exhaust into the attic... Or does it use both bulbs for the high output? so maybe one bulb in eco might be ok?

I can't seem to find any more detailed information on these besides the manufacturer's website and projectorcentral.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
have you considered the Sim2 MICO 60?
I had not, thanks!

But at 25" deep with a minimum 1.5 throw it wont fit, Ive only got 11' from the screen to the back wall. Keepn it logged in case something changes though xD

There is the Sim2 Nero 3 Plus ST though that would work.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/SIM2-NERO3_PLUS_ST.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #6

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Discussion Starter #7
So when considering these Barco/Projector Design/Digital Projection DVision/F 30/32/35 for use with madvrs hdr to sdr conversion, should brightness or color be prioritized? The versions I believe are dci/3k lumens(XC or VizSim), rec709/5k lumens(XB or Graphics), and a higher 7k lumens model(XL or High Brightness) which I'm unsure of the gamut. For HDR it sounds like brightness should be a priority, however, when using with SDR sources, the brighter projector would be significantly too bright? SDR material would either need a black screen or separate projector, correct?

Maybe its better to steer towards the XC/VizSim, use a single lamp for SDR, and utilize the larger color gamut for UHD material? :confused:
 

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I had not, thanks!

But at 25" deep with a minimum 1.5 throw it wont fit, Ive only got 11' from the screen to the back wall. Keepn it logged in case something changes though xD

There is the Sim2 Nero 3 Plus ST though that would work.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/SIM2-NERO3_PLUS_ST.htm
Well, for the MICO 60, there's always the old mirror trick to increase the throw range within the same distance.

The Nero 3 looks like an awesome option for your small room. I don't know much about the technicalities of all the things you've been asking so far, but I'd say a recent projector would be more qualified to achieve those results than those older PD models. The PD projectors have the advantage of an enormous vertical and horizontal lens shift, the sharpest lenses you can get, and some of them have an adjustable fixed iris to increase contrast at the expense of brightness (same idea as JVC projectors), but I wonder if they will have the performance you're hoping for. The Nero should be quieter and the LED light source will give you a much more stable light output, so you won't have to worry about that after calibration.

But, most of all, you should first worry about making your room entirely black, preferably using triple velvet. Otherwise, no amount of dynamic range will look satisfying in the room.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, for the MICO 60, there's always the old mirror trick to increase the throw range within the same distance.
I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?

I'd say a recent projector would be more qualified to achieve those results than those older PD models.
That's what I'm wondering. Picking up a dvision30 xc or pd f32 vizsim for $500(assuming they have the right lens and younger bulbs otherwise add another 500) seems like an interesting option. How would that compare to a ht3550 ht5550 or theo z65. Its a darkchip4 projector so Id imagine contrast is in between my w1070 and rs45, and it sounds like brightness and color gamut(contrast as well) would be better than the benq models. Some pages say it has a dynamic iris but I'm not sure if thats correct. @12GAGE did you have an F35? If so could you compare the contrast to the newer benq(you have the laser one correct?)
Those color wheels will be the closest. They provide very good color maybe not full DCI.
Some literature has said the rgbrgb wheels produce over 25% of ntsc, which would be over 70% rec709 which would be rec2020 correct?

But, most of all, you should first worry about making your room entirely black, preferably using triple velvet. Otherwise, no amount of dynamic range will look satisfying in the room.
Yup rooms treated and the screen can go blacker than my jvc rs45u in low lamp with the iris closed down.
 

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I had an F35 Vizsim model. There is no dynamic iris just a manual iris. The FL35 Led unit has dynamic black. I changed out my F35 for a LK970. The LK970 has advantages in brightness and laser stability. The F35 had a better lens, better color and better contrast both ansi and on/off. I would look at a Theo Z65, but honestly however from a value perspective the older PD models are great. They are well built throw a good image and pretty reliable. The downsides are 2 bulbs per unit and the are fairly loud.





I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?


That's what I'm wondering. Picking up a dvision30 xc or pd f32 vizsim for $500(assuming they have the right lens and younger bulbs otherwise add another 500) seems like an interesting option. How would that compare to a ht3550 ht5550 or theo z65. Its a darkchip4 projector so Id imagine contrast is in between my w1070 and rs45, and it sounds like brightness and color gamut(contrast as well) would be better than the benq models. Some pages say it has a dynamic iris but I'm not sure if thats correct. @12GAGE did you have an F35? If so could you compare the contrast to the newer benq(you have the laser one correct?)

Some literature has said the rgbrgb wheels produce over 25% of ntsc, which would be over 70% rec709 which would be rec2020 correct?


Yup rooms treated and the screen can go blacker than my jvc rs45u in low lamp with the iris closed down.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I had an F35 Vizsim model. There is no dynamic iris just a manual iris. The FL35 Led unit has dynamic black. I changed out my F35 for a LK970. The LK970 has advantages in brightness and laser stability. The F35 had a better lens, better color and better contrast both ansi and on/off. I would look at a Theo Z65, but honestly however from a value perspective the older PD models are great. They are well built throw a good image and pretty reliable. The downsides are 2 bulbs per unit and the are fairly loud.
Thank you!! I've read the theo blogs and am looking forward to the calibration and second shootout they mentioned. I really like the look of DLP and trying out one of these old pd models sounds cool.

Question about the eco mode, on the spec sheet for the dvisions it says 5000 hours per lamp - automatic sync mode.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_spec_4439.pdf

The Barco sheet calls it VIDI but reports 2,500hours
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_spec_8363.pdf

Do you happen to recall the light output? Do they always use 2 bulbs, or can you use 1 bulb and get 5000 hours per lamp in eco?

For power consumption the specs say max 1kw, I'd imagine that's both bulbs at full lamp power, any chance you know the power draw in eco? If I get one I can always hook it up to a kwm first, would have to install a dedicated circuit if its pulling 8amps all the time though. My screens only 92" so I only need about 500 lumens for SDR

I'd consider enclosing the unit and exhausting in to the attic too, so that'll cut down on the noise and heat.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I have a first generation DPI M Vision LED, ISCO III and slide I’d consider parting with.
Isco iii?
This? https://www.projectorcentral.com/Digital_Projection-M-Vision_Cine_LED_1000.htm

I think the throws a little long, lowest is 1.56 and id need about 1.48

could you pm me your asking price?
 

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Those units are very flexible with the lamps. You can run both or just one. You also can dial down the intensity of the lamp with several different wattage settings (up to 300 watts) on both or either lamp. You could get 5000 hrs on a lamp under the right usage conditions in my opinion.



Thank you!! I've read the theo blogs and am looking forward to the calibration and second shootout they mentioned. I really like the look of DLP and trying out one of these old pd models sounds cool.

Question about the eco mode, on the spec sheet for the dvisions it says 5000 hours per lamp - automatic sync mode.
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_spec_4439.pdf

The Barco sheet calls it VIDI but reports 2,500hours
https://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_spec_8363.pdf

Do you happen to recall the light output? Do they always use 2 bulbs, or can you use 1 bulb and get 5000 hours per lamp in eco?

For power consumption the specs say max 1kw, I'd imagine that's both bulbs at full lamp power, any chance you know the power draw in eco? If I get one I can always hook it up to a kwm first, would have to install a dedicated circuit if its pulling 8amps all the time though. My screens only 92" so I only need about 500 lumens for SDR

I'd consider enclosing the unit and exhausting in to the attic too, so that'll cut down on the noise and heat.
 

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The Digital Projection M-Vision Cine LED projectors are great if you could find one for under $2000.
 

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I'm not familiar with this, what do you do put a mirror on the back wall and turn the projector around then angle the mirror down and have a second mirror angled at the screen? Would the mirror need to be in the middle of the screen?





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You need only 1 good mirror on the back wall. If you place it vertically, it will simply extend the throw in the opposite direction, not affecting the angle in any way. If you need to tilt the projector down (for example, to place it higher), then you tilt the top of the mirror backwards the same degrees to compensate and get a straight image on the screen. Although check the manual to see if tilting the projector is an option. Finally, you set the projector to ceiling rear projection mode.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Has anyone seen 1% to 20% adl contrast measurements for these projectors? I've only seen native, dynamic on off, and ansi measurements.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Do all of these units have the same dimming function, however, Runco and Sim2 do the gamma correction in the projector? Is it possible to do the gamma correction with a 3d lut for the vivitek and dpi mvision units?
 
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