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Then why did RPTV DLPs have that same quality? I had one for about a month around 17 years ago. Animation just had this look. Although my CRT projector blew away the DLP in every aspect except animations. I suggest watching Akira on a DLP.

What's strange is the first generation JVC DILA RPTV had that quality too which went away with the new ultra high contrast projectors.
You can compare the picture quality of a TV that you owned for a month, 17 years ago against projectors today, that is an amazing memory. I can see someone remembering they liked an image from a device a long time ago, but our visual memory only last seconds, not years. TV's are a different animal than projectors. I would not use animation for judging projector performance. Nearly all projectors look good with animation.
 

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You can compare the picture quality of a TV that you owned for a month, 17 years ago against projectors today, that is an amazing memory. I can see someone remembering they liked an image from a device a long time ago, but our visual memory only last seconds, not years. TV's are a different animal than projectors. I would not use animation for judging projector performance. Nearly all projectors look good with animation.
My brother in law had a 65" Mitsubishi DLP until about a few months ago, right before the outbreak he replaced it with one of those "superior" 4k LCDs. Anime doesn't look anywhere near as good as on his DLP.

I'm a bit confused. A RPTV is still a projector only with a mirror.

My only point was there's some magical quality with DLP that isn't there with other technologies, and it has nothing to do with a better lens. Because whether RPTV, or front projector gives the same result.
 

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Discussion Starter #223
I would not use animation for judging projector performance. Nearly all projectors look good with animation.
Ya, that's not true. Coming from someone who recently watched the remasters(cell animation shot on 35mm) of Venus Wars, Crusher Joe, Getter Robo Apocalypse, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Roujin Z, etc. on a Sim2 Mico, DLP, and especially 3chip or rgb led, outperforms VA LCD, OLED, and LCOS. In terms of resolved video performance, it's no contest. And this is all at bt709 with no sharpening tools. Using the native gamut and sharpening with this projector can look wild

I think this is a lot of the reason that people think DLP's have more "shadow detail" when in fact they just have a poor black floor so the gamma compensation raises the luminance levels much higher than a LCOS display as you come out of black. This makes areas of the image that are supposed to be dark, brighter. With a lower black floor, there is more contrast near black and these areas don't need to be as bright and can be as the director intended.
That's a great point that low level detail is elevated to compensate for a higher black floor.

However, wouldn't you also say that the modulators ability to render values out of and close to black is equally important in determining shadow detail performance? I have a Sim2 Mico, and low apl scenes with little black, and especially in motion, have a shocking level of detail and accuracy that I don't see even in OLED displays, that show ghosting. I know JVC for instance implemented overshooting compensation years ago, but I've still yet to see any modern display technology aside from DLP that completely avoids overshooting/undershooting, and is(when calibrated) hitting the correct video values instantaneously, due to the electrostatic modulation of the dmd.

The handmaids tale s3 finale had alot of motion at night in the woods, swathes of dark blues and cyans, very little highlights, very little black. In this ~1% adl scene a JVC and a lumis/mico have similar contrast, but video rendering performance is drastically different, in favor of DLP. There was a forest scene in Ladyhawke that was very low adl but daytime, panning shots, wind blowing leaves, incredibly resolving. These scenes did not look as good on LCOS/OLED displays.

I always find it amusing that folks that don't have high sequential contrast displays always try to find some contrast test that makes it sound like they aren't missing anything, but when you put a LCOS or a DLP in the same room and look at just about any content there is, the difference is profound. Even in mixed scenes. Once you get down into the dark content, its embarrassingly bad. Poor sequential displays are great for a lot of things, especially sports and presentations, both of which rarely have a lot of dynamic range.
Consider good DLP though, a Sim2 Lumis(6k native, 35k dynamic, 1500 lumens, native bt709) or a Sim2 Mico(2.5k native, 15k dynamic, 600 lumens looks like 1000 lumens, red bt2020 target, green between p3 and bt2020). The DMD essentially has perfect modulation function, but is extremely susceptible to light scatter due to the nature of the dmd... The improved optics of these projectors and the dmds mtf result in extremely high color contrast and video accuracy. I suppose there was just no way to reduce cost for these machines, which require larger and more expensive optics.

Here's the dynamic contrast graph for the Mico, the lumis should measure close to the hdr duo?


One could argue, at that point you're sacrificing superior video performance for 5% of content(not considering native hdr support), a couple of scenes like in the Revenant and Oblivion, or a couple movies that are mostly low adl with large amounts of black, From Hell, The Descent, etc. At 10fl(a comparably comfortable brightness to my uhp projectors at 16fl, rs45, dpi mvision260) and 10-15k gamma corrected dynamic contrast, like you said with eyes adjusting to the amount of brightness in the frame, the black level in most darker content is rarely differentiable from the masking. Only in content like you mentioned with mostly black with darker in frame content do I see a difference to the masking, but it's hardly embarrassing. And doesn't negatively impact immersion at least not like a 5ms black to white and ghosting does, resulting in unresolved video performance ;]

I've yet to see an argument aside from contrast in favor of digitally driven inorganic liquid crystal, as superior to analog driven organic as it is, versus electrostatic modulation of a mirror. It's specifically that modulation ability and using a mirror to modulate instead of a layer of polarized liquid crystal that gives DLP its appeal. Instead of diminishing a persons taste for a display technology, I think we're all better served by pointing them to the DLP machines that can display superior contrast.

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With the talk of ANSI contrast, wouldn't this be a better indicator of perceived sharpness or pixel to pixel contrast and haloing? Would lower ansi also impact color contrast in brighter scenes, despite a lack of black? The report of the Samsung A900 showing no benefits could be attributed to the color wheel, which reduces color depth of video rendering. Were any comparisons made with a 3chip projector or an rgb led projector with a good quality lens to avoid chromatic abberation?
 

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Ya, that's not true. Coming from someone who recently watched the remasters(cell animation shot on 35mm) of Venus Wars, Crusher Joe, Getter Robo Apocalypse, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Roujin Z, etc. on a Sim2 Mico, DLP, and especially 3chip or rgb led, outperforms VA LCD, OLED, and LCOS. In terms of resolved video performance, it's no contest. And this is all at bt709 with no sharpening tools. Using the native gamut and sharpening with this projector can look wild
Amen to that. And that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the .47 chip DLPs or even the XPR ones; I'm talking the Runcos ....or the Sim2s whose contrast is at or exceeds 30,000:1 and native is 10,000:1.

Ironically, I was just posting with someone in the Nero 3D thread who, like me, also had a JVC NX7 and wants to come back to DLP. I've had my fair share of LCD/Lcos projectors and keep coming back to DLP. Why? This time, I finally found a DLP with all the right stuff fantastic color and very good black levels and contrast to boot (I"ll post some pics). I actually did a very detailed A/B with my NX7 and wound up selling the NX7 in favor of the Runco. This Runco has the Proteus 4 lens and the difference in contrast and black levels with the NX7 the way I had the NX7's lens settings for HDR was not night and day but the other stuff, the picture on the LS-10 I just fell in love with; it looked sooo cinematic!

These high end DLPs must look incredible with HDR MadVR. Anyone try it? Ahh yes..there's a movement afoot and it's a return to once untouchable pricey high end DLPs. :)

 

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Discussion Starter #226
Modern anime too, especially flashy special effects have an unrivaled appearance on rgb led dlp

Don't pretend, there's no arguing against every pixel changing state in 10 microseconds with perfect accuracy free of over/undershooting. Pixel perfect line rendering free of misconvergence, with a boosted sharpness due to higher ansi contrast ;]

















 

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Of course most of the area from black to the mid-luminance range will be higher in luminance than it is supposed to be, but it avoids crush. Again, this is why so many people think DLP has better shadow detail than higher contrast displays. Better shadow detail actually requires higher sequential contrast so there is more contrast between the lower luminance levels, but because DLP RAISES the luminance of all that area (be it with 2.2 or 1886), it is just brighter (which it shouldn't be to keep artistic intent). One could do the same thing with a higher CR display by simply raising the black floor and lower gamma.
So the artistic intent of directors is not to have their films shown in say DCI cinemas?
DCI cinemas have low contrast and curve the bottom of their gamma to their black.
And the artistic intent of directors is not to have their films then marketed to the home viewing market on blu-ray, remastered with tolerances in the expectation of being viewed on displays with various contrast ability in various view environments at various gamma settings.

Cinematography and mastering is not done with the above expectations? With the artistic intent to look good in the above viewing situations?

Cinematography and mastering is instead done with the artistic intent of being displayed on displays capable of on/off contrast orders of magnitude higher than the vast majority of people will view it on? With only this privileged minority getting to see the true artistic intent? With other lesser displays only good for watching less contrast demanding fare like sports?

For many films I watch the directors and cinematographers must have been visionaries because they were filmed before JVC lcos was around to enable them to see with their own eyes their artistic vision.
 
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Here's the dynamic contrast graph for the Mico, the lumis should measure close to the hdr duo?
Is there any real ADL contrast measurements about these older high end DLP's? If I remember correctly, that Sim2 Mico curve is just your guess? Would be nice to see more!
 

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So the artistic intent of directors is not to have their films shown in say DCI cinemas?
DCI cinemas have low contrast and curve the bottom of their grey scale to their black.
And the artistic intent of directors is not to have their films then marketed to the home viewing market on blu-ray, remastered with tolerances in the expectation of being viewed on displays with various contrast ability in various view environments at various gamma settings.

Cinematography and mastering is not done with the above expectations? With the artistic intent to look good in the above viewing situations?

Cinematography and mastering is instead done with the artistic intent of being displayed on displays capable of on/off contrast orders of magnitude higher than the vast majority of people will view it on? With only this privileged minority getting to see the true artistic intent? With other lesser displays only good for watching less contrast demanding fare like sports?

For many films I watch the directors and cinematographers must have been visionaries because they were filmed before JVC lcos was around to enable them to see with their own eyes their artistic vision.
That's what I was getting at. But wasn't trying to be as verbose.

But, how do we get back the original gamma curves? Those curves are baked into the AVC files.

This could've been solved with different codecs. If they had the original gamma curves, with a modification file. Then the original color space files with the corresponding modification file.

Then we could have a choice.

This was a problem with early aspect ratios. Laserdisc hardcoded the letterbox bars. Early DVDs did the same, with letterbox.

Later, anamorphic DVDs came out. But, this was already a part of the DVD spec. So if you had a 16:9 set, which was rare, the movie would stretch with little to no bars. While on a SDTV you'd get the same effect of letterbox.

Before that there were even two versions, side A anamorphic, and side B "Full" screen.

I'm thinking maybe they could slightly modify the codec with a new UHD player which lets you insert an old disc, and it then downloads a mod file of the correct gamma and color space. Then like how some combination theatrical and director's edition discs would hot patch the missing footage seamlessly.

But first we need to adopt these standards for hardware besides DCI P3 2.6 gamma cinema projectors and grading/broadcast monitors.

I always thought this BT 2020 stuff was utter stupidity. Only a select few can even come close to doing P3, let alone 2020 which is an even wider. So what's the point? We should work on getting P3 perfect first.

"Director's intent" and "2.6 gamma is nearly impossible to show properly" are silly arguments when that's exactly what the director's intent was in the first place! What we have on Blu-ray and UHD could just as easily be argued, "personal preference."
 

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Ya, that's not true. Coming from someone who recently watched the remasters(cell animation shot on 35mm) of Venus Wars, Crusher Joe, Getter Robo Apocalypse, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Roujin Z, etc. on a Sim2 Mico, DLP, and especially 3chip or rgb led, outperforms VA LCD, OLED, and LCOS. In terms of resolved video performance, it's no contest. And this is all at bt709 with no sharpening tools. Using the native gamut and sharpening with this projector can look wild
Amen to that. And that's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the .47 chip DLPs or even the XPR ones; I'm talking the Runcos ....or the Sim2s whose contrast is at or exceeds 30,000:1 and native is 10,000:1.

Ironically, I was just posting with someone in the Nero 3D thread who, like me, also had a JVC NX7 and wants to come back to DLP. I've had my fair share of LCD/Lcos projectors and keep coming back to DLP. Why? This time, I finally found a DLP with all the right stuff fantastic color and very good black levels and contrast to boot (I"ll post some pics). I actually did a very detailed A/B with my NX7 and wound up selling the NX7 in favor of the Runco. This Runco has the Proteus 4 lens and the difference in contrast and black levels with the NX7 the way I had the NX7's lens settings for HDR was not night and day but the other stuff, the picture on the LS-10 I just fell in love with; it looked sooo cinematic!

These high end DLPs must look incredible with HDR MadVR. Anyone try it? Ahh yes..there's a movement afoot and it's a return to once untouchable pricey high end DLPs. /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

WOW aztar, the colors and feel to the image is amazing , all of this is without madVR ? So is this SDR or HDR.

Imagine what could be acheived with 3dlut into MadVR with its proper DTM..

Need to find one asap... lol
 
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I made a hand drawing about contrast ratio
I like the idea. Can you draw a couple lines that show the limits of rooms? Most livingrooms are good for only 50:1 ANSI/50% ADL, good theater rooms for 200:1 and batcaves maybe 400:1.
 

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I like the idea. Can you draw a couple lines that show the limits of rooms? Most livingrooms are good for only 50:1 ANSI/50% ADL, good theater rooms for 200:1 and batcaves maybe 400:1.
While its not a graph and I do not know how true to reality it is there is a contrast calculator online that has room reflectance as one of the variables you can set. (Note for ADL I think you need to reduce the percentage of the screen area covered by the checker board not checker board percentage in the table. Setting checker board in the table to 20% means the white squares are 20% input stimulus that is they are less bright, not white squares of 100% luminance occupy 20% of the screen. So to keep the white squares at 100% white luminance and instead reduce the percentage of the screen occupied by white squares you need to reduce the area of the screen covered by the checker board)
https://res18h39.netlify.app/contrast

And some low ADL image examples
https://res18h39.netlify.app/intrascene
 

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That's what I was getting at. But wasn't trying to be as verbose.

But, how do we get back the original gamma curves? Those curves are baked into the AVC files.

This could've been solved with different codecs. If they had the original gamma curves, with a modification file. Then the original color space files with the corresponding modification file.

Then we could have a choice.

This was a problem with early aspect ratios. Laserdisc hardcoded the letterbox bars. Early DVDs did the same, with letterbox.

Later, anamorphic DVDs came out. But, this was already a part of the DVD spec. So if you had a 16:9 set, which was rare, the movie would stretch with little to no bars. While on a SDTV you'd get the same effect of letterbox.

Before that there were even two versions, side A anamorphic, and side B "Full" screen.

I'm thinking maybe they could slightly modify the codec with a new UHD player which lets you insert an old disc, and it then downloads a mod file of the correct gamma and color space. Then like how some combination theatrical and director's edition discs would hot patch the missing footage seamlessly.

But first we need to adopt these standards for hardware besides DCI P3 2.6 gamma cinema projectors and grading/broadcast monitors.

I always thought this BT 2020 stuff was utter stupidity. Only a select few can even come close to doing P3, let alone 2020 which is an even wider. So what's the point? We should work on getting P3 perfect first.

"Director's intent" and "2.6 gamma is nearly impossible to show properly" are silly arguments when that's exactly what the director's intent was in the first place! What we have on Blu-ray and UHD could just as easily be argued, "personal preference."
BT2020 is not stupid at all, it is allowing latitude for future displays so we don't have to create yet another standard as displays get better and better. The content we have now is mainly limited to the P3 subset within that container, with probably 95% or more of it never exceeding 709. P3 is not a consumer format and never will be. It isn't even designed for the standard YCbCr format of encoding color information to consumer playback formats.

Not sure what you mean by, that was the "director's intent" in the first place. I've already said how this works. The films are hand graded in sessions from scratch on DCi projectors that are calibrated to a 2.6 gamma. They literally tune the picture to look they way they want it to on that display. That grade applies ONLY to theatrical presentation. From there trim passes are made for consumer playback at 709D65 with a 2.4 power gamma. Calibration standards have you calibrate the display to BT1886 to perceptually match the intent of the filmmaker. 1886 compensates for low contrast displays that cannot achieve a true power gamma of 2.4 (this applies to LCOS displays as well) by balancing how fast the display comes out of black and maintain the proper balance between luminance points. With a DLP projector this typically ends up giving you an average gamma of around 2.1 to 2.2 because the black floor is so high to begin with (LCOS are typically somewhere between about 2.3 and 2.38 depending on the model and CR achieved). So everything you watch is brighter than the master intended, but the balance of elements to each other is perceptually closer to what it should be than if you had done the calibration with a power gamma of say 2.2, 2.4 or 2.6. What we have on Blu-ray/DVD is NOT personal preference. It is an actual grade that was done in a mastering suite. Typically these are done on high contrast flat panels. Many of the SDR grades now are actually trim passes of HDR grades using Dolby's tools.

Even when they do theatrical grading on DCi DLP projectors they have waveform monitors for real time monitoring because they understand that DLP cannot show black. I've been in quite a few mastering studios and watched the process and have talked to many involved in the process during the process and at other times.

At this point I'm done here. Again, this stuff gets tiring and I've seen it so many times, over and over and over again with the same stuff. Again, absolutely nothing wrong at all with loving DLP as a format.
 

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P3 is not a consumer format and never will be. It isn't even designed for the standard YCbCr format of encoding color information to consumer playback formats.

Not sure what you mean by, that was the "director's intent" in the first place. I've already said how this works. The films are hand graded in sessions from scratch on DCi projectors that are calibrated to a 2.6 gamma. They literally tune the picture to look they way they want it to on that display. That grade applies ONLY to theatrical presentation.
Why won't it? The Epson LCOS specifically had a filter for P3. It seems they were attempting to get that adopted. So what happened?

If P3 @ 2.6 gamma on a DCI projector is how the director originally saw it, isn't that the very definition of director's intent?

Most films after being show at the cinema get a colorist who adapts the original DCI master to a REC709 and a gamma between 2.2 to 2.4.

Home theater projectors in the enthusiast category already surpass the DCI versions the director used to screen the film.

So if you miss the theatrical presentation you're SOL?

I saw Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire in IMAX. The colors and lighting of the UHD release are nothing like the theatrical release. Even though on an OLED it looked amazing in its own way, it still was nothing like a scaled down version of the original.

Not trying to get into a conflict here, but unless P3 is adopted for home theater, the experience of the original theatrical presentation will be forever lost.

Which is a shame, since these aren't 70mm which I could understand why you can't 100% recreate the original in a home theater. But with modern films, that isn't the case, since those DCI masters exist in digital format.
 

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WOW aztar, the colors and feel to the image is amazing , all of this is without madVR ? So is this SDR or HDR.

Imagine what could be acheived with 3dlut into MadVR with its proper DTM..

Need to find one asap... lol
This was just SDR. :) I imagine that your MadVR HDR and a custom color profile would look insanely good.

I hope you can get one. One of the first things you'll notice in addition to its sharpness and color, is how mind-blowing motion is.

The power lens controls, focus, zoom, etc. are very convenient for adjusting right up at the screen. I will say this, that even though the on/off was measured at c. 22,000:1 (see Sound & Vision's measurement of 21,025:1 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/runco-ls-10i-3-chip-dlp-projector-page-4 ), when you look onscreen, you would think it was even more.

Calibrated, this projector is very bright. I have to run it in low lamp on a 125 inch 1.1 gain screen.
 

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Why won't it? The Epson LCOS specifically had a filter for P3. It seems they were attempting to get that adopted. So what happened?

If P3 @ 2.6 gamma on a DCI projector is how the director originally saw it, isn't that the very definition of director's intent?

Most films after being show at the cinema get a colorist who adapts the original DCI master to a REC709 and a gamma between 2.2 to 2.4.

Home theater projectors in the enthusiast category already surpass the DCI versions the director used to screen the film.

So if you miss the theatrical presentation you're SOL?

I saw Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire in IMAX. The colors and lighting of the UHD release are nothing like the theatrical release. Even though on an OLED it looked amazing in its own way, it still was nothing like a scaled down version of the original.

Not trying to get into a conflict here, but unless P3 is adopted for home theater, the experience of the original theatrical presentation will be forever lost.

Which is a shame, since these aren't 70mm which I could understand why you can't 100% recreate the original in a home theater. But with modern films, that isn't the case, since those DCI masters exist in digital format.
You either need to reread kris's post again or are you choosing to ignore what he posted, since he answered this? DCI content and UHD content are two different animals. As for projectors having the P3 filter, some projectors have the filter so that the projector can be used in screening rooms showing DCI content. In those cases, the projector will have a DCI mode. Early on many projectors just plain had it wrong and provided a P3 filter, when the projector should have had BT2020 support, using a P3 filter. The Epson LS10000 was one of those that got it wrong. So the LS10000 had the filter, but without BT2020 support the projector did not have a way to map the color space of UHD HDR correctly.
 

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Again, absolutely nothing wrong at all with loving DLP as a format.
I love this point! Thank you. There are friends here who would focus our attention into a one-dimensional on/off contrast vacuum or who would tell us what our personal tastes should be. Kris, I really appreciate that you did not do that. :)
 

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Only reason I posted in this thread was in response to early posts saying native contrast was just a marketing spec. And saying ANSI is the metric that should be used.

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Contrast is used as a marketing tool to sell projectors, just like ANSI and light output is used, but the metric itself is not just a marketing spec.
 
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