AVS Forum banner

301 - 320 of 1149 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #301 (Edited)
That's why I like simple tests such as shimmering water or fire, they tell me tons about the things I care about in the image. Haloing, colour gradient, motion rendering. Hard to fake the realism as they are such familiar images in our brains.
Thats why I linked all those anime gifs, perfect examples of oodles of full pixel on/off motion that no other display technology can match.

DLP mirrors rapidly flick on and off to fool the eye into seeing shades. And single chip projectors rapidly create sequential red, green, blue images to fool the eye into seeing a full color image. How DLP works to create a image is far from natural. That it works at all is a amazing. Three chip DLP is said to create better images in part because it has more time to make each shade and does not rely on sequential color.
Right! Thanks for clarifying, what I meant was that it moves the mirror to hit the correct input value with no overshooting not that it sample and holds the mirror in a static position xD

The solid state single chip projectors have a color frequency of around 900hz as well, compared to 300hz for color wheel, and look more like 3chip dlp. I originally wouldve thought the flicker introduced by turning the dmd off between color wheel segments would have been a boost to motion performance like black frame insertion, but the motion performance and video rendering of the rgb solidstate vs color wheel projectors is something else.

It is a wild imaging system, being that it was originally designed to mimic crt I guess pixel transit speed was a goal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
518 Posts
Is there a white and gray version of the Runco Q-750i, instead of the black and white one? Is there any significance to this version other than the case's color?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #303
Is there a white and gray version of the Runco Q-750i, instead of the black and white one? Is there any significance to this version other than the case's color?

That is the white and gray version? There was only 1 generation of q750i, and then theres a q650i that I believe just used a darkchip3 instead of darkchip4.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
518 Posts
That is the white and gray version? There was only 1 generation of q750i, and then theres a q650i that I believe just used a darkchip3 instead of darkchip4.
There's also the 'd' versions of each which adds "significant lens shift capability," and the ultra versions with a Vivix III controller.

But Runco is silent on whatever that picture I posted is. Usually they list case options in their product sheet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #305
There's also the 'd' versions of each which adds "significant lens shift capability," and the ultra versions with a Vivix III controller.

But Runco is silent on whatever that picture I posted is. Usually they list case options in their product sheet.
O I didnt know they could add more lens shift, I was aware of the model with the external video controller though.

That listing also doesnt say which lens it has, standard is 1.85-2.4 and short is 1.56-1.85
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,821 Posts
If you can sell me one for the price I paid for my current pre-owned Runco, maybe I'll consider it. :p

No, but seriously, I've seen the RS3000/NX9, and Lcos/LCD does not --and cannot-- look just like a DLP. DLP and Lcos have a very distinctive look to each technology. To my eyes, Lcos images look kind of chalky and air-brushed (just watch the final fight scene in Avengers: End Game on an Lcos and then watch it on one of these high-end DLPs). It's mainly because of that look that I came back to DLP from having owned a JVC NX7. DLP, has ...well... that DLP look...glossy, high ANSI contrast, different appearance to its line precision (especially single chip), outstanding motion for projection --especially the three chippers. And with this three chipper (having over 21,000:1 on/off contrast on tap), I never even felt like I needed more.
You mean dynamic? None of the old high end 3-chip DLP's had native that good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,924 Posts
You mean dynamic? None of the old high end 3-chip DLP's had native that good.
I don't follow. As you know, full on/off means the total sequential contrast of which the proctor is capable. Going back to a publication example, for...? "example," take the Epson 5050 where Sound & Vision reported:

Epson Home Cinema 5050UB Pro-UHD 3LCD Projector Review Test Bench

FULL-ON/FULL-OFF CONTRAST RATIO: 34,700:1
even though its native measurement was 4,338:1

See https://www.soundandvision.com/content/epson-home-cinema-5050ub-pro-uhd-3lcd-projector-review-test-bench

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're coming back to sequential contrast. The narrative was not about that; my simple point was that there are differences in picture appearance between the two technologies and my personal satisfaction with one over the other.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,821 Posts
I don't follow. As you know, full on/off means the total sequential contrast of which the proctor is capable. Going back to a publication example, for...? "example," take the Epson 5050 where Sound & Vision reported:

Epson Home Cinema 5050UB Pro-UHD 3LCD Projector Review Test Bench

FULL-ON/FULL-OFF CONTRAST RATIO: 34,700:1
even though its native measurement was 4,338:1

See https://www.soundandvision.com/content/epson-home-cinema-5050ub-pro-uhd-3lcd-projector-review-test-bench

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're coming back to sequential contrast. The narrative was not about that; my simple point was that there are differences in picture appearance between the two technologies and my personal satisfaction with one over the other.
Why do you make it out like I have a personal problem with your choice, when I don't. Just pointing out it is a dynamic measurement and I agree with many others in this thread that full on full off dynamic does not tell you much about the performance of the projector. It is also why I pretty much never talk about dynamic contrast on any projector.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,924 Posts
Why do you make it out like I have a personal problem with your choice, when I don't. Just pointing out it is a dynamic measurement and I agree with many others in this thread that full on full off dynamic does not tell you much about the performance of the projector. It is also why I pretty much never talk about dynamic contrast on any projector.
Now, that's just plain ol' silly, Mike. Of course, I don't think that.

Sure... we can go back to talking about contrast in the context of this discussion. With these, or any other displays, it would be a mistake to focus on adequate sequential contrast at the cost of ignoring so many other important things that go into a well-rounded image. What's nice about sequential contrast is that it's a fast, simple, and direct way to convey objective information to the end user/consumer. But once you reach a threshold where blacks and contrast look convincing, other things should be of equal concern, like motion, texture, sharpness/precision, lens, color, etc.

The Runco, with dynamic iris (DI) off S & V measured it at about 3,400:1, I think, but that is with some type of algorithm called adaptive contrast (AC) turned on. AC needs a touch of tuning to avoid blowing out highlights. It isn't a DI but it improves sequential contrast. With DI off and AC off, my LS-10 measures around, or a little less depending on lamp mode, than 3,000:1. The DC4 Sim2s do even better with a native number of 10,000:1.

Well, I hope that settles it. And don't forget to give your wife flowers for Mother's Day. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,821 Posts
Now, that's just plain ol' silly, Mike. Of course, I don't think that.

Sure... we can go back to talking about contrast in the context of this discussion. With these, or any other displays, it would be a mistake to focus on adequate sequential contrast at the cost of ignoring so many other important things that go into a well-rounded image. What's nice about sequential contrast is that it's a fast, simple, and direct way to convey objective information to the end user/consumer. But once you reach a threshold where blacks and contrast look convincing, other things should be of equal concern, like motion, texture, sharpness/precision, lens, color, etc.

The Runco, with dynamic iris (DI) off S & V measured it at about 3,400:1, I think, but that is with some type of algorithm called adaptive contrast (AC) turned on. AC needs a touch of tuning to avoid blowing out highlights. It isn't a DI but it improves sequential contrast. With DI off and AC off, my LS-10 measures around, or a little less depending on lamp mode, than 3,000:1. The DC4 Sim2s do even better with a native number of 10,000:1.

Well, I hope that settles it. And don't forget to give your wife flowers for Mother's Day. :)
Glad to hear that. My problem with the dynamic contrast measurements is how they are often times taken. 0 ire pattern and wait until dynamic iris slowly, fully closes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
817 Posts
Now, that's just plain ol' silly, Mike. Of course, I don't think that.

Sure... we can go back to talking about contrast in the context of this discussion. With these, or any other displays, it would be a mistake to focus on adequate sequential contrast at the cost of ignoring so many other important things that go into a well-rounded image. What's nice about sequential contrast is that it's a fast, simple, and direct way to convey objective information to the end user/consumer. But once you reach a threshold where blacks and contrast look convincing, other things should be of equal concern, like motion, texture, sharpness/precision, lens, color, etc.

The Runco, with dynamic iris (DI) off S & V measured it at about 3,400:1, I think, but that is with some type of algorithm called adaptive contrast (AC) turned on. AC needs a touch of tuning to avoid blowing out highlights. It isn't a DI but it improves sequential contrast. With DI off and AC off, my LS-10 measures around, or a little less depending on lamp mode, than 3,000:1. The DC4 Sim2s do even better with a native number of 10,000:1.

Well, I hope that settles it. And don't forget to give your wife flowers for Mother's Day. :)
u are 100% right , but there has to be a minimum, for example current dlp has 1000-1200:1 native contrast, that is visibly grey in very low adl scenes, on the other hand i have a VA monitor with 3500:1 native and these scenes looks so much better. now when u add the dynamic dimming it makes these old DLP great in the whole range of the image, very low apl to high apl scenes.
a perfect example is the JVC z1 , it doesnt have great native contrast but its dimming is so good that so many people prefer its very lo apl handling to the NX9.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aztar35

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #312
Glad to hear that. My problem with the dynamic contrast measurements is how they are often times taken. 0 ire pattern and wait until dynamic iris slowly, fully closes.
The modern dynamic laser manufacturer contrast specs are just absurd too. Inf:1, 100k:1, even 35k:1... just with massive compression and 150 lumens peak white =p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,821 Posts
u are 100% right , but there has to be a minimum, for example current dlp has 1000-1200:1 native contrast, that is visibly grey in very low adl scenes, on the other hand i have a VA monitor with 3500:1 native and these scenes looks so much better. now when u add the dynamic dimming it makes these old DLP great in the whole range of the image, very low apl to high apl scenes.
a perfect example is the JVC z1 , it doesnt have great native contrast but its dimming is so good that so many people prefer its very lo apl handling to the NX9.
Huge difference between 1,000:1 and 10,500:1. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,821 Posts
You could cure the infinity:1 claims by randomly having a few pixels at full white in all zones. Then their dynamic contrast algorithm wouldn't work right. Maybe a randomized star like pattern?
Just need a single white pixel on, in one corner. That is what good reviewers do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,924 Posts
u are 100% right , but there has to be a minimum, for example current dlp has 1000-1200:1 native contrast, that is visibly grey in very low adl scenes, on the other hand i have a VA monitor with 3500:1 native and these scenes looks so much better. now when u add the dynamic dimming it makes these old DLP great in the whole range of the image, very low apl to high apl scenes.
a perfect example is the JVC z1 , it doesnt have great native contrast but its dimming is so good that so many people prefer its very lo apl handling to the NX9.
I measured my LS-10 rapidly changing from 0 IRE to 100 IRE. With DI on, it measured 22,000:1 and with DI off, it measured 4,000:1 using low lamp cal'd to D6500K @ 1,480 lumens.

It is definitely past what I need for convincing blacks which allows me to focus on all the other qualities of that gorgeous DLP picture. I keep seeing you guys talking about contrast here, but these older DLPs don't have contrast so weak to the extent it becomes a live issue. On the contrary. And they excel at so many things, like motion and ANSI (I don't see the silhouetting in the super bright scenes with faces in the foreground that I see on some other displays). I mean, there's a difference between focusing on the highest obtainable contrast and having an issue with it.

Tony, if we keep going down this road, I might have to buy a CRT projector and give up that DLP look altogether. :p
 
301 - 320 of 1149 Posts
Top