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Discussion for DLP projectors, with a focus on older high end models.
See around page 120 for discussion of swapping the LEDs.
Sim2 Mico 50 LED Replacement and DMD Access:
www.avsforum.com
www.avsforum.com
Wolf Cinema DCL-200FD LED replacment(same model as sim2 mico and ee truvue vango)
www.avsforum.com
Q750i teardown for led swap
www.avsforum.com
Attached to this post are PDFs for a guide to swap the LEDs in the Chi Lin models(Mico, Vango, DCL-200FD), as well as the autocal guide for the Mico 40/50/60.
To access the service menu for the Mico 50 on the remote press up right down left up right down left +
see this post for access to the q750i service menu
www.avsforum.com
Marantz VP15S1 advice and teardown
www.avsforum.com
Heres a great option for high brightness laser dlp, a Panasonic RZ660, and possibly for high ambient light use with Carbon Black Technology screens.
www.avsforum.com
Sim2 Mico Summary:
These projector's use Texas Instruments 0.95" DarkChip4(or 3) dmd. Projectors to keep an eye out for are the Chi Lin OEM LED 1 chip projectors, the Sim2 Mico and high contrast 3chip DLP like the Sim2 Lumis. Although they require external HDR tone mapping and 3D LUT calibration, these projectors are capable of showing a large uptick in video quality with UHD content(from SDR and compared to modern projectors).
The Sim2 Mico is a 1chip projector which uses three Luminus Phlatlight PT-120 LEDs, red, green, and blue, which are cycled in sequence instead of a color wheel. This projector traded light output for color saturation, which was useless 10 years ago, but with UHD content, shows color that you will only see in the new $7k+ rgb laser ust projectors or rgb laser dci projectors like in dolby cinemas. This projector has upgraded optics over other versions, including a substantial lens and diffusing optics for the leds, resulting in very little chromatic abberation. It has gamma-corrected dynamic led dimming. Between the high quality lens, the single dmd, and the high ansi contrast, it has emissive display-like pixel perfect sharpness and perfect shading accurate to the source video. Additional specs include:
-400-600 lumens(600-800 after led swap)
-85-90% bt2020 gamut
-~2-3,000:1 native contrast, 8-900:1 ansi contrast, 10-15,000:1 gamma-corrected dynamic contrast via led dimming. While contrast is lower, due to the light output of the leds, the color purity and increased color saturation, the uniformity, and the high quality optics, the projector has a boosted perceived brightness and contrast.
-90%+ full field uniformity
-no misconvergence
-no rainbow effect
-improved perceived pixel fill and resolution due to emitted led light uniformity
-10-bit processor
As a note, the low light output will require smaller screen sizes, high gain screens, or high quality expensive horizontal expansion anamorphic lenses. And the LED driver is noisy(coil whine), and could require some soundproofing.
My best comparative description would be the Mico looks like perfectly converged 3chip DLP with bt2020 color and close to SXRD native contrast. There is no perceivable difference in general brightness in low adl content when switching the dynamic led dimming on and off(while the black level is very clearly improved) as the range is shifted upwards which can result in brightness compression/clipping in some scenes, however, due to the higher native contrast and not so aggressive dimming(5x) it's functionality is very good. It doesn't have the smooth very high contrast full frame black to very low adl transistions of d-ila, but brightness matched it is comparably high contrast in 95% of content.
This post has a breakdown of the LED projectors: Older High End DLP LED
![3038506]()
![3091176]()
![Black Light Line Design Symmetry]()
![White Pattern Line Beige Material property]()
Incredible accurate shading, when video is playing as well:
![3091178]()
![3091179]()
![Light Sky Design Hand Finger]()
m150 3dlut:
![3091180]()
The Sim2 Lumis doesn't have the high color saturation(90% dci-p3 and there is a version with a motorized color filter), but is 3x as bright and 2-3x the contrast. This is a 3chip projector, with gamma corrected dynamic lamp dimming + an auto-iris. Spec include:
-1000-1700 lumens
-5-7,000:1 native contrast, 1000:1 ansi contrast, 15-21,000:1 dynamic contrast
The Runco VX-22D and Sim2 HT5000 have similar light output, slightly lower native contrast, and no dynamic contrast, however, due to the high light output, fixed iris' can be added to the lens to increase native contrast. DLPs contrast curve is linear, and boosts to on/off are boosts to most of the ADL range, resulting in vibrant contrast in most content and a solid black level in dark scenes. The three chip projectors typically only have a bt709 gamut, but some Lumis HC(hyper color) models have a filter to achieve a p3 gamut. There is also convergence error. And a caution: The VX-22D and Ht5000 weight 100 lbs, and bulb life is much shorter.
Some additional observations for the Mico and RGB LED projectors:
-The near perfect full field uniformity appears to translate to the individual micromirrors as well, improving perceived pixel fill. Screen door effect appears reduced.
-The light / uniformity of the LEDs appears to interact less with gained screen materials, resulting in reduced gain artifacting like sparkle/sheen. The texture of the material and the visible screen plane that it causes are still present, but there is a more uniform image and artifacting is less distracting, this is coming from someone watching alot of anime which is large swathes of bright colors and screen gain has always been a distracting artifact.
Digital micromirror devices summary. A 0.012ms black to white response. An impulse response, like CRT/plasma, but without the phosphor decay. Every pixel changes state immediately with perfect accuracy, with no motion blur, and an improved persistence due to the impulse response, providing a depth and dimensionality to video that most other display technology cannot replicate. Moving away from the color wheel reduces/eliminates rainbow effect, improves motion persistence as the dmd doesnt shut off like it does between color wheel segments, reduces solarizations, reduces contouring, improves color bit depth, reduces noise, and allows the dmd to perfectly display individual color grayscale(these projectors typically only need a 1 point white balance as grayscale is razor flat). The Mico has color, sharpness, and motion performance that you won't find in other projectors/tvs, capable of displaying most of the bt2020 gamut. For the 3chip projectors, a contrast rare to dlp with high brightness that will show a very HDR image. The instant black to white response and high ansi contrast enable the sharpness boost and improved depth of HDRs increased delineation of high frequency to low frequency video information, and the near perfect grayscale and lack of voltage overshooting displays low level detail with perfect accuracy.
See http://imagesci.ece.cmu.edu/files/paper/2016/HDRProjector_OpEx16.pdf on high bit depth high frame rate solid state sequential color single chip dlp.
First Edit:
In case anyone is interested, I tried to compile some information on these projectors from reading reviews and threads and talkin with people in pms. These things are older and getting rare but they're very unique projectors and I think still very relevant in terms of video performance, really incredible color performance and great contrast for DLP.
See this post: Older High End DLP LED
www.avsforum.com
Original Post:
Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.
Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.
I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.
I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.
These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?
See around page 120 for discussion of swapping the LEDs.
Sim2 Mico 50 LED Replacement and DMD Access:
Older High End DLP
Have you seen the Q750? No, I haven't. Those are just some of the projectors I have experienced. Why? How smooth and effective is its dimming function? You know, I thought my ranking numbers 4 and 5 were pretty close but I found the Epson's dimming function hardly did anything on dark...
www.avsforum.com
Older High End DLP
Yes I found it, but no mention of if you have to open if the case to get access to the sensor board or can it be reached through the front opening used to set the lens shift? has anyone done this without having to take it off the ceiling mount?
www.avsforum.com
Wolf Cinema DCL-200FD LED replacment(same model as sim2 mico and ee truvue vango)
Older High End DLP
I can hit this real quick ;] create a little black pulse at the end of each frame which clears the retina of "motion persistence" and makes the motion look smooth Its a luminance decay on an impulse of which there are ~4000 per frame. If anything it can result in trails behind motion or...
www.avsforum.com
Q750i teardown for led swap
Older High End DLP
M150 doeant have any brilliant color, usually these options are not the most accurate. It has though an LED overlap that will increase the brightness by around 20% What happens to the narrowband wavelengths when you enable LED overlap? Apparently narrowband LED wavelengths is not ideal for...
www.avsforum.com
Attached to this post are PDFs for a guide to swap the LEDs in the Chi Lin models(Mico, Vango, DCL-200FD), as well as the autocal guide for the Mico 40/50/60.
To access the service menu for the Mico 50 on the remote press up right down left up right down left +
see this post for access to the q750i service menu
Older High End DLP
I purchased the Runco Q750i in January 2010. I worked in the industry and got a great deal on it at the time. This was and is our main display in the house. I decided to pull out the laptop and check how many actual hours it has been on : 34,175 hours , and average of 9-10 hours daily ! I never...
www.avsforum.com
Marantz VP15S1 advice and teardown
Older High End DLP
I'm sure zombie4k will post some pictures of the mico50 and Runco q750 led swapping install when he gets them in. So we can just patiently wait. Maybe he will also know how to push the LEDs harder. But he probably wont see this comment so someone else would have to ask if he knows how.
www.avsforum.com
Heres a great option for high brightness laser dlp, a Panasonic RZ660, and possibly for high ambient light use with Carbon Black Technology screens.
Older High End DLP
That's pretty good for the Mico. Sorry I meant that as "the screen and room can show a deeper black than the mico can muster" The mico does an actual low adl contrast of around 7000:1. if you measure max power white to low power black its around 13000:1. I can easily see the glow of the...
www.avsforum.com
Sim2 Mico Summary:
These projector's use Texas Instruments 0.95" DarkChip4(or 3) dmd. Projectors to keep an eye out for are the Chi Lin OEM LED 1 chip projectors, the Sim2 Mico and high contrast 3chip DLP like the Sim2 Lumis. Although they require external HDR tone mapping and 3D LUT calibration, these projectors are capable of showing a large uptick in video quality with UHD content(from SDR and compared to modern projectors).
The Sim2 Mico is a 1chip projector which uses three Luminus Phlatlight PT-120 LEDs, red, green, and blue, which are cycled in sequence instead of a color wheel. This projector traded light output for color saturation, which was useless 10 years ago, but with UHD content, shows color that you will only see in the new $7k+ rgb laser ust projectors or rgb laser dci projectors like in dolby cinemas. This projector has upgraded optics over other versions, including a substantial lens and diffusing optics for the leds, resulting in very little chromatic abberation. It has gamma-corrected dynamic led dimming. Between the high quality lens, the single dmd, and the high ansi contrast, it has emissive display-like pixel perfect sharpness and perfect shading accurate to the source video. Additional specs include:
-400-600 lumens(600-800 after led swap)
-85-90% bt2020 gamut
-~2-3,000:1 native contrast, 8-900:1 ansi contrast, 10-15,000:1 gamma-corrected dynamic contrast via led dimming. While contrast is lower, due to the light output of the leds, the color purity and increased color saturation, the uniformity, and the high quality optics, the projector has a boosted perceived brightness and contrast.
-90%+ full field uniformity
-no misconvergence
-no rainbow effect
-improved perceived pixel fill and resolution due to emitted led light uniformity
-10-bit processor
As a note, the low light output will require smaller screen sizes, high gain screens, or high quality expensive horizontal expansion anamorphic lenses. And the LED driver is noisy(coil whine), and could require some soundproofing.
My best comparative description would be the Mico looks like perfectly converged 3chip DLP with bt2020 color and close to SXRD native contrast. There is no perceivable difference in general brightness in low adl content when switching the dynamic led dimming on and off(while the black level is very clearly improved) as the range is shifted upwards which can result in brightness compression/clipping in some scenes, however, due to the higher native contrast and not so aggressive dimming(5x) it's functionality is very good. It doesn't have the smooth very high contrast full frame black to very low adl transistions of d-ila, but brightness matched it is comparably high contrast in 95% of content.
This post has a breakdown of the LED projectors: Older High End DLP LED
Incredible accurate shading, when video is playing as well:
m150 3dlut:
The Sim2 Lumis doesn't have the high color saturation(90% dci-p3 and there is a version with a motorized color filter), but is 3x as bright and 2-3x the contrast. This is a 3chip projector, with gamma corrected dynamic lamp dimming + an auto-iris. Spec include:
-1000-1700 lumens
-5-7,000:1 native contrast, 1000:1 ansi contrast, 15-21,000:1 dynamic contrast
The Runco VX-22D and Sim2 HT5000 have similar light output, slightly lower native contrast, and no dynamic contrast, however, due to the high light output, fixed iris' can be added to the lens to increase native contrast. DLPs contrast curve is linear, and boosts to on/off are boosts to most of the ADL range, resulting in vibrant contrast in most content and a solid black level in dark scenes. The three chip projectors typically only have a bt709 gamut, but some Lumis HC(hyper color) models have a filter to achieve a p3 gamut. There is also convergence error. And a caution: The VX-22D and Ht5000 weight 100 lbs, and bulb life is much shorter.
Some additional observations for the Mico and RGB LED projectors:
-The near perfect full field uniformity appears to translate to the individual micromirrors as well, improving perceived pixel fill. Screen door effect appears reduced.
-The light / uniformity of the LEDs appears to interact less with gained screen materials, resulting in reduced gain artifacting like sparkle/sheen. The texture of the material and the visible screen plane that it causes are still present, but there is a more uniform image and artifacting is less distracting, this is coming from someone watching alot of anime which is large swathes of bright colors and screen gain has always been a distracting artifact.
Digital micromirror devices summary. A 0.012ms black to white response. An impulse response, like CRT/plasma, but without the phosphor decay. Every pixel changes state immediately with perfect accuracy, with no motion blur, and an improved persistence due to the impulse response, providing a depth and dimensionality to video that most other display technology cannot replicate. Moving away from the color wheel reduces/eliminates rainbow effect, improves motion persistence as the dmd doesnt shut off like it does between color wheel segments, reduces solarizations, reduces contouring, improves color bit depth, reduces noise, and allows the dmd to perfectly display individual color grayscale(these projectors typically only need a 1 point white balance as grayscale is razor flat). The Mico has color, sharpness, and motion performance that you won't find in other projectors/tvs, capable of displaying most of the bt2020 gamut. For the 3chip projectors, a contrast rare to dlp with high brightness that will show a very HDR image. The instant black to white response and high ansi contrast enable the sharpness boost and improved depth of HDRs increased delineation of high frequency to low frequency video information, and the near perfect grayscale and lack of voltage overshooting displays low level detail with perfect accuracy.
See http://imagesci.ece.cmu.edu/files/paper/2016/HDRProjector_OpEx16.pdf on high bit depth high frame rate solid state sequential color single chip dlp.
First Edit:
In case anyone is interested, I tried to compile some information on these projectors from reading reviews and threads and talkin with people in pms. These things are older and getting rare but they're very unique projectors and I think still very relevant in terms of video performance, really incredible color performance and great contrast for DLP.
See this post: Older High End DLP LED
Older High End DLP
Looks like I’ll be keeping mine for a backup or to use somewhere else. This projector is too good to give away. To replace it, even with today’s technology, will be well over $5000 for something new.BTW, earlier today I saw it mentioned that some Marantz projectors had the self calibration...
www.avsforum.com
Original Post:
Considering trying to find an older high end LED DLP for under $2000.
Runco Q750
Barco FL33
Vivitek h9090/9080 though i don't know if I have the throw for this one.
I have a short throw of about 1.4 to 1.5.
I really like the look of DLP and the lower heat output of the led projector would be welcome(small room). Would like to see DLP with better contrast. I have a 92" screen so not concerned with light output.
These projectors can do dci p3 color as well? Can madvr take a uhd blu ray and output 1080p with the higher color to the projector?
