[mmdd]

mmdd said:
You also need to calibrate the white balance in the service menu(At least in the mico 40)
Does this involve anything other than changing the values in the white balance field of the service menu?
No, just the white balance gains.
But keep in mind that only the preset you have selected in the normal menu is modified.
If you want D65, select this in the menu and then go to the service menu.
It is not possible to change all the remaining settings in the normal menu, only the one you choose.
As for the color calibration, maybe I will. The color values deviate quite a bit but the luminance value is perfect. I don't think it's necessary, but I'll do it to experiment.

 

[bdht]

mmdd said:
You also need to calibrate the white balance in the service menu(At least in the mico 40)
Does this involve anything other than changing the values in the white balance field of the service menu?
No, just the white balance gains.
But keep in mind that only the preset you have selected in the normal menu is modified.
If you want D65, select this in the menu and then go to the service menu.
It is not possible to change all the remaining settings in the normal menu, only the one you choose.
As for the color calibration, maybe I will. The color values deviate quite a bit but the luminance value is perfect. I don't think it's necessary, but I'll do it to experiment.

i thought i remembered trying to adjust white balance in the service menu and it had no effect, ill try again when i go to redo the lut, thanks

 

[mmdd]

I am going to change the LEDs, but, there is like a 25% bin fluctuation the brightness you can get. So can I calibrate both projectors for accurate color, then if one is 10% brighter than the other, reduce the contrast by 10%, run the calibration again, and get the accurate colors but 100 lumens lower? But then will one projector have 10% less contrast than the other?

What is the best way to match them? Adjust the greyscale? Or calibrate just the colors, then manually turn down each color's gain, but not the saturation or something, 10%, to keep the ratio of each color to the others the same, but the brightness lower?

Another issue is I may need to use an old red LED in one projector, and a new red amber RAX LED in another, because I may need the different wavelengths for red in the two projectors in order to hack the 3D filters that aren't designed for LED projectors, and the new red LED is not available, only the red amber, so I can't put one new red, and one new red amber, in each projector, I have to use a new red amber but an old red, which will skew the brightness significantly between the two projectors.

But I have been assured that live color software can adjust just about any colors as long as the color is there to start with. So I'm sure they can be matched, it's just a question of how Im supposed to do it, and if the 3D filters will still completely miss colors to one or both eyes that will make them not work well period. But that is a potential issue with the 3D filters, not live color. First thing I have to figure out is how to brightness match the projectors regardless of 3D filters.

You first need to match the brightness and color temperature of a 100% white pattern as closely as possible.
Then calibrate the grayscale and finally the color.
If the difference in brightness is not great, everything else will be determined by the live color software, don't worry.

 

[Technology3456]

You first need to match the brightness and color temperature of a 100% white pattern as closely as possible.
Then calibrate the grayscale and finally the color.
If the difference in brightness is not great, everything else will be determined by the live color software, don't worry.

The 3D filters shift the color though. So if there is a way to avoid going in circles chasing my tail, where I match the brightness and greyscale without the filters, then the filters mess it up, then I do it again, then the colors match but not the brightness, then I match the brightness but the colors are off, etc etc. Like how do I do both at once, with the 3D filters in place?

I need to match colors and brightness, both of them, not one or the other. Black needs to be black on both projectors at the same time, and white needs to be white, and the same brightness. Otherwise I will get "eye rivalry" and this is one of the biggest causes of headaches in 3D. The brightness to each eye, and the greyscale of each eye, need to be matched. That is #1 most important. After that, the color needs to be matched, or 90%, but it's not quite as important as the brightness and greyscale match.

If the color is 5% off between the eyes, but the brightness is the same, the brain will combine the two colors into one and it will be fine. But if the brightness is 5% off, and the color is the same, you might get a headache. So both are very important, I want to get both of them within 1-2%, brightness is even more important.

 

[mmdd]

The 3D filters shift the color though. So if there is a way to avoid going in circles chasing my tail, where I match the brightness and greyscale without the filters, then the filters mess it up, then I do it again, then the colors match but not the brightness, then I match the brightness but the colors are off, etc etc. Like how do I do both at once, with the 3D filters in place?

I need to match colors and brightness, both of them, not one or the other. Black needs to be black on both projectors at the same time, and white needs to be white, and the same brightness. Otherwise I will get "eye rivalry" and this is one of the biggest causes of headaches in 3D. The brightness to each eye, and the greyscale of each eye, need to be matched. That is #1 most important. After that, the color needs to be matched, or 90%, but it's not quite as important as the brightness and greyscale match.

If the color is 5% off between the eyes, but the brightness is the same, the brain will combine the two colors into one and it will be fine. But if the brightness is 5% off, and the color is the same, you might get a headache. So both are very important, I want to get both of them within 1-2%, brightness is even more important.

I do not see the problem.
You have to calibrate each projector separately with the filter in place.
All calibration is referenced to a white temperature and brightness level.
If the brightness matches, you just need to calibrate each one separately with the filter to your desired color space.

 

[Technology3456]

I do not see the problem.
You have to calibrate each projector separately with the filter in place.
All calibration is referenced to a white temperature and brightness level.
If you check the brightness, you just have to calibrate each one separately with the filter to the color space you want.

Ok great. As long as I can set the max brightness, and then make the software set the colors correctly for that specific brightness level, not just whatever the projector is capable of, that is the goal.

I just need a way to get the greyscale and colors correct even while limiting the brightness of one of the projectors, basically. You said the only way to lower the brightness was to lower the contrast, so I didnt know how that would work with live color etc. Anyway when I get the meter and the filters then I'll see exactly what I can figure out and what I cant.

 

[Technology3456]

Can anyone please post some graphs for the wavelengths that Xenon projectors have, and the wavelengths that Sony SXRD projectors have? Specifically, from around 2009 - 2012. Both cinema and consumer versions. Those are what the two types of Omega filters are based off, though not 100%, so this is the latest clue I'd like to track down to get some idea how they compare to the wavelengths of my LEDs.

Also, can anyone calculate the cyan and yellow wavelength for the M-150 in overlap mode?

For calculations, Luminus RAX = 609-620 range, red = 619-630, green = 516-540, blue = 450-468.

Based on these numbers, I need to know the wavelength ranges of cyan and yellow for an M-150 using RAX, GREEN, and BLUE LEDS, and I need to know the wavelength ranges of cyan and yellow for an M-150 using RED, GREEN, and BLUE LEDs.

 

[zombie10k]

This is the color sensor, its not adjustable from this side, maybe from the other side though, didnt remove it yet.

Thanks for the posting the color sensor in the M150, it looks different from the sensor in the Mico 50 from the Cine4home teardown.

pls let us know if you find any adjustments on the other side

Mico 150

Mico 50

Runco Q750

 

[zombie10k]

Also the extra noctua fan you installed, is there a molex or 4 pin fan connector unused connection in the Runco?

hi, a quick update on the fan. This is the model I am using, it's very quiet even at full speed. It only pulls 1.2 watts at full speed.

Amazon.com: Noctua NF-A9 PWM, Premium Quiet Fan, 4-Pin (92mm, Brown): Computers & Accessories

I found a good +12v source close to the fan. This wire harness is powering the HDMI board and the leads are coming directly from the power supply.

I removed the wire from the edge connector and carefully stripped a small section of the +12v red wire. I then soldered the tip of the yellow wire from the fan + heatshrink tubing to seal it.

This fan only needs +12v on the yellow and ground on the black wire to run it at full speed. I clipped the other 2 PWM wires.

I used 3M double faced tape to secure the back section of the fan and wire ties to secure at the 2 front corners w/ the existing wire clips.

I let it run overnight, no issues. Thermals are great now around the PCB's and eliminated the external power supply I was previously using.

 

[tnaik4]

Thanks for the posting the color sensor in the M150, it looks different from the sensor in the Mico 50 from the Cine4home teardown.

pls let us know if you find any adjustments on the other side

Mico 150

View attachment 3117285

Mico 50

View attachment 3117286

Runco Q750

View attachment 3117287

Seems though both mico 50 and 150 dont have any adjustments on the color sensor, i highly doubt there is an adjustment on the other side.

 

[FLX90]

Hey guys,

I need your help.
I cannot calibrate grayscale and especially primaries and secondaries with the new LEDs.
Blue, yellow, cyan and magenta are at maximum 2.0 gain but delta L is still negative.
I don't know what to do.
100 % white always looks a bit yellow.

I use a i1Display Pro and HCFR.
I calibrate to REC 709 with ITU-R BT.1886 (2.5 @50%).
I use field patterns and 100 % for primaries and secondaries.
Projector settings: Gamma: 2.5, Color Temp: 6500, Color Space: RGB Video.

Rename CAL.chc.txt to CAL.chc to open.

 

[mmdd]

The problem is the RGB balance in IRE 100.
You need to balance it for the new leds.
Could you do a measurement with the original color space and all the defaults
Is this the service menu?

 

[Technology3456]

I'm having an issue with my LED replacement for the M-150. My installer said normally you set the green LED to 5000 - 9000, but when he tried this, the green was very weak etc. He's saying the new LEDs have messed up the color of the projector. I asked tnaik who also has the M-150, and he said he never set any individual colors during the installation, he only set overall greyscale to 6500.

Can anyone who understands this stuff weigh in on what is going on? Do I want individual colors set, or just greyscale? And is 6500 what I want also or 6400 or something else?

@tnaik4 @FLX90 @cseneles @zombie10k

The problem is the RGB balance in IRE 100.
You need to balance it for the new leds.
Could you do a measurement with the original color space and all the defaults
Is this the service menu?

Is this also an issue for the M-150, which is similar projector as the Wolf Cinema that FLX90 has, but which has live color calibration software that maybe Wolf doesnt have, or is this not applicable to the M-150 for that reason?

Can IRE 100 be adjusted with live color calibration software after the projector is closed up, or can you only change it during the LED replacement?

 

[Technology3456]

On the M-150 with motorized lens shift, how do you know when you are at center lens shift, or zero lens shift?

 

[Technology3456]

I am having an issue with my M-150 and focusing. (See video here 018 and here 015).

If it is far out of focus to the "left" of the correct focus, it will have a green shadow around white letters. If you try to focus it towards the middle by pressing the right arrow 10 times, it does nothing until maybe it feels it is getting close, event though nothing on screen changes. Then when you press the right arrow, it focuses like 20% more every time you press the arrow, right until it is about to get in focus. Then you press it one more time, but instead of getting in focus, the green shadow around the letters turns into red. The first time I did this, the whole image would almost "jump" at that center point, and like reset by a milimeter. Now it doesn't do that anymore, but the focus problem is still there.

Then if you try to go back one focus notch, by pressing the left arrow instead of the right, once again it will do nothing for 10 clicks or so. But if you want to keep going right and go more out of focus, it will let you keep going and each time it will get more red and more blurry, until you reach the limit.

Then if you try to go back left, it won't do anything for 10 clicks, then it will work 20% each time, until it is almost correct, but then it turns green instead of becoming correct. It is like whenever it is close to teh center line, the focus button will work every time so long as you don't cross the center line. As soon as you cross the center line, you have to keep going, otherwise it won't work for another 10 clicks until it works again. It is like the focus is needing to catch up to the color shift or something.

See video here 018 and here 015. Keep in mind I am pushing the arrows constantly the whole time, but you only see a difference on screen sometimes. That is what Im talking about. The arrows only respond in the way I described. The remote is working 100%, but it is something going on with the projector.

Pictures but camera isn't picking up the green as well as the red:



All of this is happening with what should be very little lens shift being used.

Is my unit defective? Is the problem an easy fix? Either this or something else seems to be affecting the motion of the projector. Whenever a camera cuts, it is like there is a double frame, and things seem to skip a little bit, almost like frame-dropping during frame interpolation on an OLED, or artifacts of frame interpolation on an OLED, except, there is no frame interpolation enabled on my M-150. It has the feature, but I turned it off. Yes I'm 100% sure. Please help!!

 

[mmdd]

Technology3456:
Can you enter the service menu of the projector?
Can you take photos of this menu to see your options?
Try to figure out how to do it as it can help with both of your problems.
In the service menu of the mico 40 (perhaps also the M-150) you can set the brightness of the RGB colors.
Can be done automatically or by manually entering the values
If you can measure the primaries + white, you can calculate the correct ratio.

Regarding the approach:
You must wait at least half an hour to exclude temperature drift.
Does the same thing happen to you in both units?
In the mico 40 there is an option in the service menu "Lens Shift Calculation".
I haven't tried it yet, but maybe I will calibrate or reset the lens mechanisms, including focusing.That option may also exist on the M-150

 

[Technology3456]

Technology3456:
Can you enter the service menu of the projector?
Can you take photos of this menu to see your options?
Try to figure out how to do it as it can help with both of your problems.
In the service menu of the mico 40 (perhaps also the M-150) you can set the brightness of the RGB colors.
Can be done automatically with a probe or by manually entering the values
If you can measure the primaries + white, you can calculate the correct ratio.

Regarding the approach:
You must wait at least half an hour to exclude temperature drift.
Does the same thing happen to you in both units?
In the mico 40 there is an option in the service menu "Lens Shift Calculation".
I haven't tried it yet, but maybe I will calibrate or reset the lens mechanisms, including focusing.
View attachment 3117833

I have no idea how to enter the service menu. My installer has one M-150 that is getting the new LEDs. The other I have to do at home in the future. I have one at home and that's the one I'm having the focus problems with. Here are more pictures.

View attachment 3117830 View attachment 3117831 View attachment 3117834

Here's the left side of the image. These are taken off the contrast test pattern. View attachment 3117835

The biggest concern is, I am getting significantly bad motion blur with most (all?) movement. Only like 35% as bad as the OLED but still not comfortable to watch. However I doubt it is the fault of a functioning M-150. Either the focus problem is causing bad motion blur, or my screen being so bad is the culprit. But even though the Lumis was much more out of focus, I didnt get blur on the same screen, so I don't know what to think. This has not been comfortable to watch so far.

Right side of another test pattern: View attachment 3117836

Here are my settings. Hopefully something is wrong and that will fix everything. Do you see any settings wrong?

View attachment 3117843 View attachment 3117842 View attachment 3117841 View attachment 3117840 View attachment 3117839 View attachment 3117838 View attachment 3117838

 

[mmdd]

The projector is broadcasting 1080p at 60hz.
Were you watching content 24hz to 60hz?
If so, that would explain your movement problems.
Set your player to direct source so that it outputs the correct frequency of video content to the projector.

 

[Technology3456]

The projector is broadcasting 1080p at 60hz.
Were you watching content 24hz to 60hz?
If so, that would explain your movement problems.
Set your player to direct source so that it outputs the correct frequency of video content to the projector.

I wish that was the problem. 60hz is only for the playstation menu. When I played the 24hz bluray, it went "no input," black screen, then a splash of interference or distortion over the screen, and then the picture showed up, 1080p/24hz. But every time the projector changed inputs, you could see it flicker and start to rev up like an engine, like it had to gain its speed from the start again and you could see it slowly speeding up until you couldn't notice it anymore.

For the blu ray, it did did say 24hz vertical refresh but 26.7 or something horizontal refresh. Maybe 26.9hz horizontal refresh, I have to go back and look. Just like for the playstation menu, it says 60hz vertical and 67hz horizontal or something. It was the same like that, but for 24hz vertical and 26.x horizontal.

 

[mmdd]

Try another player to discard the source