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I wish that was the problem. 60hz is only for the playstation menu. When I played the 24hz bluray, it went "no input," black screen, then a splash of interference or distortion over the screen, and then the picture showed up, 1080p/24hz. But every time the projector changed inputs, you could see it flicker and start to rev up like an engine, like it had to gain its speed from the start again and you could see it slowly speeding up until you couldn't notice it anymore.

For the blu ray, it did did say 24hz vertical refresh but 26.7 or something horizontal refresh. Maybe 26.9hz horizontal refresh, I have to go back and look. Just like for the playstation menu, it says 60hz vertical and 67hz horizontal or something. It was the same like that, but for 24hz vertical and 26.x horizontal.
When it changes to 24hz and u see it flicker for couple of sec , the color management gets stuck sometimes, to fix it just enter the color managment tab and change to any other setting and back to ur prefered one.
This will not happen when u calibrate with LCC software but it get stuck with the stock presets.
Also do not keep the HDMI range to auto, auto always chose 16-235 , so if u are using full on ur source u have to manually chose 0-255.

Concerning CA do u see it from ur seating distance ? All rgb leds has small CA when very close specially to the edges but shouldnt be visible from seating distance.

As for motion it shouldnt have any issue , when its 24hz, does it say on the info that its 24hz and 48hz ? Or just 24hz , maybe the source isnt outputing real 24hz, when i use it on my pc the motion is just perfect.
 
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When it changes to 24hz and u see it flicker for couple of sec , the color management gets stuck sometimes, to fix it just enter the color managment tab and change to any other setting and back to ur prefered one.
This will not happen when u calibrate with LCC software but it get stuck with the stock presets.
Also do not keep the HDMI range to auto, auto always chose 16-235 , so if u are using full on ur source u have to manually chose 0-255.

Concerning CA do u see it from ur seating distance ? All rgb leds has small CA when very close specially to the edges but shouldnt be visible from seating distance.

As for motion it shouldnt have any issue , when its 24hz, does it say on the info that its 24hz and 48hz ? Or just 24hz , maybe the source isnt outputing real 24hz, when i use it on my pc the motion is just perfect.
I dont see the CA from my seating distance except on the side of the screen where the border of the screen would normally be, except the T2 lens doesnt fill my big test screen so Im seeing it on the white part of the screen. I didnt even see the bad misconvergence from the Lumis from my seatign distance, but Im sure both are less sharp from seating distance than they would be without these problems.

The motion with puremovie on (so no frame interpolation) says 24hz input output at 48hz. Not only is the motion blurry, but whenever the camera cuts, it's just there is a double frame of black in between the camera cut. You know how in video game cutscenes, there is sometimes a bug with the cutscenes where it is doubling the frame for camera cuts, this looks a lot like that.

Do you think changing the hdmi range to 16-235 will fix the problem?

It's also not letting me choose anamorphic aspect ratio, or all the options. Only "user 1" "user 2" or "user 3."

Do you know if it's a problem that my HDMI is plugged into hdmi input 4? I thought it was input 1 but it's input 4. Should work like any of them though.
 

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I dont see the CA from my seating distance except on the side of the screen where the border of the screen would normally be, except the T2 lens doesnt fill my big test screen so Im seeing it on the white part of the screen. I didnt even see the bad misconvergence from the Lumis from my seatign distance, but Im sure both are less sharp from seating distance than they would be without these problems.

The motion with puremovie on (so no frame interpolation) says 24hz input output at 48hz. Not only is the motion blurry, but whenever the camera cuts, it's just there is a double frame of black in between the camera cut. You know how in video game cutscenes, there is sometimes a bug with the cutscenes where it is doubling the frame for camera cuts, this looks a lot like that.

Do you think changing the hdmi range to 16-235 will fix the problem?

It's also not letting me choose anamorphic aspect ratio, or all the options. Only "user 1" "user 2" or "user 3."

Do you know if it's a problem that my HDMI is plugged into hdmi input 4? I thought it was input 1 but it's input 4. Should work like any of them though.
Btw if u want to enter the service menu:

Press the "dot" button followed directly by the "info" button, it ll show u a small box to enter a code , the code is 29979. This will show u the full service menu and there is a lens center feature u can use to centre the lens
 
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The problem is the RGB balance in IRE 100.
You need to balance it for the new leds.
Could you do a measurement with the original color space and all the defaults
Is this the service menu?
Yes, it is the service menu.
I attached the measurement with default values.

3118045


I got the gain values of blue, yellow, cyan, magenta below 2 by lowering gain of red massively.
I can calibrate primaries and secondaries with delta E below 1 (picture is a test picture and over 1), expect red!
I can't get it below delta xy 0.0178.
I don't know why.
Runtime counts 6 h. 6 hours of calibration without success.
It is my second calibration (with the old LEDs it took me one hour to get all delta E [grayscale and primaries & secondaries] below 1), so I'm not an expert but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
So @cseneles @tnaik4 @zombie10k, everybody who already replaced the LEDs. You could calibrate them? Then I would know that it's not because of the new LEDs, but about me ...
 

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Can't get 6500k on IRE 90 and 100?
In the ordinary menu you have no more controls to reduce red and increase blue?
It has a very pronounced gamma drop starting at IRE 70.
Have you tried lowering the contrast to flatten that drop?
As for the colors, the important thing is the intermediate saturations(Hcfr lets you measure these sarurations).
The ends don't really look bad.
 

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Update on my LED installation using someone with experience with Sim2 and M-150s. He said when he installed the new LEDs, everything was much more red, so he either didn't try (I think he said), or could not, calibrate it correctly using live color software. Instead, he used a backdoor into the software to set a custom value for red, and now he says the projector looks pretty good, and it says it's at 6500k, but it still looks a little red.

Is it possible to access this backdoor at home? Is this going to make things worse? I told him it's normal for there to be extra red before calibration with the new LEDs, he said the green is supposed to be the brightest not the red with the new LEDs, so I don't know what's happening.

It's already too late to ask him to do a different way. Please tell me there is some way if necessary to get the projector at home and undo what he did (if necessary) except keeping the new LEDs in place? By backdoor I don't know if he just meant the service menu, or what. He said it's the backdoor to the live color software specifically that he had to get from the software maker, so I am worried it is not something that can be accessed at home, or even reset. What do you guys think?
 

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Yes, it is the service menu.
I attached the measurement with default values.

View attachment 3118045

I got the gain values of blue, yellow, cyan, magenta below 2 by lowering gain of red massively.
I can calibrate primaries and secondaries with delta E below 1 (picture is a test picture and over 1), expect red!
I can't get it below delta xy 0.0178.
I don't know why.
Runtime counts 6 h. 6 hours of calibration without success.
It is my second calibration (with the old LEDs it took me one hour to get all delta E [grayscale and primaries & secondaries] below 1), so I'm not an expert but I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
So @cseneles @tnaik4 @zombie10k, everybody who already replaced the LEDs. You could calibrate them? Then I would know that it's not because of the new LEDs, but about me ...
This is the new LEDs color measurement calibrted to d65, greyscal is under 1 de across the whole range.
I m not sure if ur projector has a software like LCC , but what i did is change the native color coordinates from the old leds to the new ones.

The M150 has a built in pattern generator, so in LCC there is a native color measurement, it ll display pure red-green-blue , so i measure these with my meter and than input the coordinate in the software, it ll upload it to the service menu.

Also if u can do a firmware update even for the same version u have, just to completely reset everything. Thats what i did .
 

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Can't get 6500k on IRE 90 and 100?
In the ordinary menu you have no more controls to reduce red and increase blue?
It has a very pronounced gamma drop starting at IRE 70.
Have you tried lowering the contrast to flatten that drop?
As for the colors, the important thing is the intermediate saturations(Hcfr lets you measure these sarurations).
The ends don't really look bad.
Now I got a perfect gray scale by calibrating at IRE 100 (not 80 like written here).
And I could reduce delta xy for red by decreasing hue a bit. But now green and cyan are off.
3118263


So I'm turning in a circle ...

I only have those controls:

Ordinary Menu:
3118265


Service menu:
3118266
 

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Now I got a perfect gray scale by calibrating at IRE 100 (not 80 like written here).
And I could reduce delta xy for red by decreasing hue a bit. But now green and cyan are off.
View attachment 3118263

So I'm turning in a circle ...

I only have those controls:

Ordinary Menu:
View attachment 3118265

Service menu:
View attachment 3118266
I m not sure whats causing this, but everything should calibrate perfectly accross the whole range , have u tried reinstalling the old red led to see if u dont have these issues with it, maybe the rax led u have isnt functioning correctly.
 
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Now I got a perfect gray scale by calibrating at IRE 100 (not 80 like written here).
And I could reduce delta xy for red by decreasing hue a bit. But now green and cyan are off.
View attachment 3118263

So I'm turning in a circle ...

I only have those controls:

Ordinary Menu:
View attachment 3118265

Service menu:
View attachment 3118266
Your grayscale looks perfect now, but don't you realize that when you measure primary and secondary colors the white is no longer correct?
Remember that hcfr calculates the color error delta in reference to white, therefore that color measurement is not reliable.
The LEDs may have more drift due to temperature than the previous ones, are they water or air cooled?
It is not normal for me to measure perfect white on grayscale and then not colors.
If you calibrate white, turn the projector off, and then turn it back on, does it measure the same? Is there much difference with the hot and cold projector?
To calibrate color use hcfr real time measurement.
Measure grayscale and primary and secondary colors and then measure the color you want in real time.
Then modify the coordinates on the projector to move the color wherever you want (always within the range allowed by the projector).
 

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This is the new LEDs color measurement calibrted to d65, greyscal is under 1 de across the whole range.
I m not sure if ur projector has a software like LCC , but what i did is change the native color coordinates from the old leds to the new ones.

The M150 has a built in pattern generator, so in LCC there is a native color measurement, it ll display pure red-green-blue , so i measure these with my meter and than input the coordinate in the software, it ll upload it to the service menu.

Also if u can do a firmware update even for the same version u have, just to completely reset everything. Thats what i did .
Can you please highlight where in this table to input the new red, green, and blue values? https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/20210402_124605-jpg.3118264/

I want to pass on this info exactly, with the exact place inside the menu where it's supposed to go. Leave zero room for any crossed wires between what I read and what I tell the person helping me with the new LED installation.

@FLX90 I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble with your calibration. You were one of the people who figured out how to do this so if anyone should enjoy the benefit it is you. It's added cost but do you think a CMS box would fix the problem if you can't fix it using Wolf's software? Before calibrating anything, it sounds like measuring the new red green and blue values with a meter, and then setting a new native gamut, is the trick to being able to calibrate correctly. At least that is the trick tnaik used, and he is the only one with an M-150 or Wolf version of the M-150 that didn't run into some aspect of this problem, because I think my installer was having the same issue, which may or may not be fixed now, it's not clear.

If there is no way to input new values into the wolf menu, then maybe CMS? Do you think if someone sent you the Sim2 live color software, that it could be installed on the Wolf since the Wolf is a different version of the M-150? That's the only other thing I can think of. Probably a longshot but you never know.
 

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Do native 1080p DLP - LED projectors have some sort of "switching" mechanism similar to pixel shifting, or to laser projectors that only use two primary colors, plus a filter to make the third?
 

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I was googling for the Luminus PT-120 red LED, and can't find it, but a lot of other Luminus LED lines came up, and the pictures look the same shape and everything. Is it possible one of the other Luminus LED lines would work, not just PT-120? There's the CBM line, CBT, and CST that I found so far that look, in the pictures, as far as I can tell, the same shape as the PT-120 line. I can only see that the CBT offers red, blue, and green in the datasheet, while the other two only have colors like white, ultraviolet, etc, that I can see.

CBT: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Luminus PDFs/CBT-120.pdf

CST: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Luminus PDFs/CST-90.pdf

CBM: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/245/Luminus_CBM-120-UV-Gen4_Datasheet-1499161.pdf.
 

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Can you please highlight where in this table to input the new red, green, and blue values? https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/20210402_124605-jpg.3118264/

I want to pass on this info exactly, with the exact place inside the menu where it's supposed to go. Leave zero room for any crossed wires between what I read and what I tell the person helping me with the new LED installation.

@FLX90 I'm sorry to hear you are having trouble with your calibration. You were one of the people who figured out how to do this so if anyone should enjoy the benefit it is you. It's added cost but do you think a CMS box would fix the problem if you can't fix it using Wolf's software? Before calibrating anything, it sounds like measuring the new red green and blue values with a meter, and then setting a new native gamut, is the trick to being able to calibrate correctly. At least that is the trick tnaik used, and he is the only one with an M-150 or Wolf version of the M-150 that didn't run into some aspect of this problem, because I think my installer was having the same issue, which may or may not be fixed now, it's not clear.

If there is no way to input new values into the wolf menu, then maybe CMS? Do you think if someone sent you the Sim2 live color software, that it could be installed on the Wolf since the Wolf is a different version of the M-150? That's the only other thing I can think of. Probably a longshot but you never know.
It is not inside the projector menu, its inside the LCC software, or the service menu which is trickier, the LCC software is very easy to use and to do that, just need to input the numbers xyY in the correct red-green-blue native tab and than press send to projector.
 
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I was googling for the Luminus PT-120 red LED, and can't find it, but a lot of other Luminus LED lines came up, and the pictures look the same shape and everything. Is it possible one of the other Luminus LED lines would work, not just PT-120? There's the CBM line, CBT, and CST that I found so far that look, in the pictures, as far as I can tell, the same shape as the PT-120 line. I can only see that the CBT offers red, blue, and green in the datasheet, while the other two only have colors like white, ultraviolet, etc, that I can see.

CBT: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Luminus PDFs/CBT-120.pdf

CST: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Luminus PDFs/CST-90.pdf

CBM: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/245/Luminus_CBM-120-UV-Gen4_Datasheet-1499161.pdf.
I would think the CBT should work, need to compare it to the pt-120 to see whats the difference.
 
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I would think the CBT should work, need to compare it to the pt-120 to see whats the difference.
Definitely. I tried giving it a look over but I dont know enough about which specs are important that they're the exact same, and which aren't. @FLX90 @cseneles @tnaik4 @armyplace @mmdd @zombie10k or anyone else who knows how to read these specs, please compare https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Luminus PDFs/CBT-120.pdf to https://download.luminus.com/datasheets/Luminus_PT-120_Datasheet.pdf and see if a. the CBT line will work and b. if you can use the green and blue from the PT-120 line, and the red from the CBT-120 line, at the same time, mixing them, without creating problems.

Apparently the new PT-120's can be mixed with old PT-120s from like 2012 without any problem, but please make sure you can mix two separate lines at once. And if the CBT line can be used, please compare the wavelengths of the CBT's vs the PT-120s, not just the red but the green and blue too, as well as the brightness level and so on. Maybe this can be my way to get different blue and green wavelengths in my second M-150, which I think is the only way to make the color bandpass 3D filters work on LED lightsource projectors.

EDIT: There is also a CBT-90 Thermally Enhanced line, in addition to CBT-120 non-thermally enhanced. Probably it's bad news that there is no CBT-120 thermally enhanced line. And I have no idea what is still in stock for either. Here is the CBT-90 TE line. https://download.luminus.com/datasheets/Luminus_CBT-90_Datasheet.pdf. Please compare this too.
 

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See important edit above if you missed it.

The CBT-120 red is out of stock also. The CBT-90 Thermally Enhanced red is in stock at least one of the bins.
 

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Okay guys lol, here is a full list of mouser red LEDS besides the PT-120 TE and PT-121 TE and PT-120 non-TE lines:

In Stock
"Far red" CBM-120 CBM-120-FR-C15-RA100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey
"Red" CBM-90 TE CBT-90-RX-L15-BN101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

Out of Stock but still lets you put in cart
"Red" CBM-90 TE different bins CBT-90-RX-L15-BM101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey and CBT-90-RX-L15-BM100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey and CBT-90-RX-L15-BN100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

Non-stock and no option to put in cart
"Red" CBM-90 non-TE various bins CBT-90-R-C11-HJ100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HJ100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HL100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HM102 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HJ101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HK100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HH100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HH101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey,

CBT-120 "Red" various bins CBT-120-R-C11-HJ101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-120-R-C11-HJ100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

Available to Order 0 with no cart option
"Red" CBT-120 various bins CBT-120-R-C11-HK100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-120-R-C11-HK101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-120-R-C11-HM100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-120-R-C11-HM101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey,

"Price and Procurement 0 in stock" with no option to add to cart or order
PT-120 "Red" non-TE (I think), various bins PT-120-R-C11-MPC Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, PT-120-R-C11-MPD Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, PT-120-RA-C11-MPF Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, PT-120-R-C11-MPB Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey,

CBT-90 "Red" (non-TE) CBT-90-R-C11-HK101 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HK102 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HM100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey, CBT-90-R-C11-HM100 Luminus Devices Inc. | Optoelectronics | DigiKey

If there are double or triple links of the same thing, I apologize, but that would mean the same thing came up on different pages of the mouser search engine.
 

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Here are the other blue and green Luminus LEDs, except once again I am leaving out the various PT-120 and PT-121 lines because those have already been discussed. But here are the others I've found.

Lets you add to cart
Blue:
-https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/luminus-devices-inc/CBT-90-B-L11-J100/5247654
Green:

Some of these are 1 min, some 10 min, some 50 min...

Doesn't let you add to cart
Blue:

Green:

None of the other green LEDs have high enough wavelengths that I would need to work with the color bandpass 3D filters I was looking at either, so that sucks, but I'm still curious if any of them would work for the red or maybe blue. I tried comparing the blueprint for the CBT-120 to the PT-120 TE, and one of them says emitting area is 2.6, the other says 2.63. One says some part is 28.00+0.25, the other says 28.00+0.30, except there is a _ under both plus signs.

Does this mean it won't work because it's not 100% the same, or did they just change the specifity of their specs, or... what do you think?
 

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Can anyone please go over one more time the difference, as far as motion blur, between the projector technologies of 1 chip DLP with bulbs and color wheels, 1 chip DLP with LEDs, and 3 chip DLP with bulbs? I found this in my google search, which it looks like was written by bdht, that I want to use to ask the question:

The dmd normally shuts off between color wheel segments, and without the color wheel the natural 10 microsecond impulse response of the dmd without the phosphor decay of crt seems to improve motion persistence.
This all gets back to the idea that the natural phosphor decay of CRTs, and I think also plasma TVs, create a little black pulse at the end of each frame which clears the retina of "motion persistence" and makes the motion look smooth. OLEDs lack this completely while at the same time having almost instant pixel response, meaning, they hold each frame for the longest amount of time of any type of display, and have no black pulse at the end, which is why they have the worst "persistence blur." (explained here Why Do Some OLEDs Have Motion Blur?)

It's also why they include a "black frame insertion" feature to try to mimic this, but it doesn't really do the job.

Apparently DLP technology does innately produce some sort of pulse effect similar to CRT, thus the good motion on DLPs. For DLPs using color wheels, the DMD itself has to turn off at the end of each frame apparently, and this creates the pulse, but it takes 10ms I guess. For DLP projectors using LED lightsource, the LEDs can just be turned off, and I guess this is faster than turning off the DMD, so the pulse is faster.

This is why bdht theorizes that DLP - LED projectors have even better motion than DLP with color wheel. He says it improves the "motion persistence." However, too much motion persistence is exactly why OLED has bad motion, so that's where I get confused. The logic seems to be that having no pulse-type-of-effect at the end of a frame is bad, and will lead to "persistence blur" like OLED, but that having as little pulse as possible, so long as you have it, is good, and therefore, the longer pulse on DLP with color wheel is actually worse than DLP with LED. But if motion persistence is bad, why would having more of it be better?

And at least for the Dynamic Black feature, there is some diffeernce between the Sim2 Mico 50's LEDs turning off, and the Sim2 M-150 LEDs not turning off. I wonder if the Sim2 M-150 has the pulse at all or if its LEDs never actually turn off 100%?

And then for three chip DLP, I don't even know it supposedly achieves the same faster pulse like DLP - LED projectors do? It doesn't have LEDs to turn off, so wouldn't it have to turn off all three digital micro mirrors (DMDs), not just one, and that would either be the same speed, or slower, depending how you look at it, as a color wheel DLP projector does it? Or what is the difference?
 
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