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Discussion Starter · #2,621 ·
I can hit this real quick ;]

create a little black pulse at the end of each frame which clears the retina of "motion persistence" and makes the motion look smooth
Its a luminance decay on an impulse of which there are ~4000 per frame. If anything it can result in trails behind motion or effect sharpness, but it's so fast it really shouldn't be visible
3119631


. For DLPs using color wheels, the DMD itself has to turn off at the end of each frame apparently, and this creates the pulse, but it takes 10ms I guess
It creates maybe 0.5ms of black. Its the same as black frame insertion. The dmd switches off. This happens at whatever interval the color wheel operates at(240-300x per frame). The dmd has to switch off between color wheel segments or color is messed up.

why bdht theorizes that DLP - LED projectors have even better motion than DLP with color whee
Not a theory.

too much motion persistence is exactly why OLED has bad motion, so that's where I get confused. The logic seems to be that having no pulse-type-of-effect at the end of a frame is bad, and will lead to "persistence blur" like OLED
Oled is different. Oled uses sample and hold and displays stable luminance for the duration of the frame instead of pulsing a pixel to display grayscale. Nothing happens "at the end of the frame".

Sample and hold = lowest motion persistance.
 

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Someone responded over PM with his suggestion what my motion issue on the M-150 could be. Do any of you know the answer to what the "native rate" is on the Sim2 DMD he's talking about?

What you describe sounds more like a mismatched frame rate or conversion/processing that takes place and is causing that issue. I can't remember what frame rate the Sim2 DMD is (the native rate, not what inputs it can process), but I'd recommend to look that up in a data sheet or call Sim2 about it, then try to feed native resolution and frame rate to the projector and see if it's still an issue. Also, turn any type of processing off or as low as possible.
 

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I can hit this real quick ;]


Its a luminance decay on an impulse of which there are ~4000 per frame. If anything it can result in trails behind motion or effect sharpness, but it's so fast it really shouldn't be visible
View attachment 3119631


It creates maybe 0.5ms of black. Its the same as black frame insertion. The dmd switches off. This happens at whatever interval the color wheel operates at(240-300x per frame). The dmd has to switch off between color wheel segments or color is messed up.


Not a theory.


Oled is different. Oled uses sample and hold and displays stable luminance for the duration of the frame instead of pulsing a pixel to display grayscale. Nothing happens "at the end of the frame".

Sample and hold = lowest motion persistance.
Why I get confused is that the blur buster articles say OLED has the highest persistence and that this causes blur in OLED's case.

An excellent web-based animation of sample-and-hold motion blur can be found via the Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests: Eye-Tracking Motion Blur Animation. This is motion blur from persistence.
Since the pixels update immediately, and are held the entire direction, each frame persists longer than on any other technology, causing more stutter than any other, I guess. And since the eyes expect what they perceive as moving objects to keep moving, the eyes keep tracking while the frame stays put, which causes the image to "smear" against the retina I guess, which I think explains why the OLED was bothering my eyes so much and looking so smeary and "out of focus" when things moved. If this is a result of motion persistence, and DLP - LED has more of it, then, etc. However it sounds like CRT actually has more of it than DLP - LED, or am I misunderstanding? And CRT motion never had that problem for me, so...

Back when my IN83 was set up, I never had that with the IN83. When I tested bad unit, out of focus, 3 chip DLP I had here on this bad test screen, I didn't have it. So far on the same test screen, the M-150 unit I have has it, but I doubt the M-150 in general has this problem so I am trying to troubleshoot and fix it.

Can you explain how 3 chippers do the "pulse" different to DLP - LED? If 3 chippers also pulse as fast or faster than DLP - LED, but 3 chipper motion doesnt have this problem for me, then I can rule out that the faster "pulse" of DLP - LED compared to DLP with color wheel is the cause of my issue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,624 ·
Why I get confused is that the blur buster articles say OLED has the highest persistence and that this causes blur in OLED's case.
motion persistence vs pixel persistence, and they're attributing motion blur to sample and hold pixel persistence instead of slower modulation times. motion persistence would refer to a lack of or reduced stutter from sample and hold pixel persistence.

Can you explain how 3 chippers do the "pulse" different to DLP - LED? If 3 chippers also pulse as fast or faster than DLP - LED, but 3 chipper motion doesnt have this problem for me, then I can rule out that the faster "pulse" of DLP - LED compared to DLP with color wheel is the cause of my issue.
they dont do it differently, they all use the same dmds, the difference is in how they display color, with the only difference in motion performance with the color wheel light paths. theoretically there should be no difference in motion performance between a 3chip unit and a single chip with high frequency sequential color, all things processing being the same.
 

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motion persistence vs pixel persistence, and they're attributing motion blur to sample and hold pixel persistence instead of slower modulation times. motion persistence would refer to a lack of or reduced stutter from sample and hold pixel persistence.


they dont do it differently, they all use the same dmds, the difference is in how they display color, with the only difference in motion performance with the color wheel light paths. theoretically there should be no difference in motion performance between a 3chip unit and a single chip with high frequency sequential color, all things processing being the same.
I dont know if its relevant, but I thought about, how do they create black? The DLP - LED can just turn off the LEDs, but the 3 chip and color wheel DLPs, unless they can turn the bulb off and on quickly (I know they cant), then I guess they have to turn off the DMD? And if turning off one DMD on a color wheel projector is slower than turning off and on the LEDs, then turning off three DMDs on a 3 chip projector should be just as slow or slower? But I guess this is only an issue for motion with color wheels that have to go black every frame, whereas 3 chippers dont? I think youre saying the DMD isnt the slow factor, it is the color wheel that forces the DMD to stay off much longer than it needs to?

How does the LED switching time compare to the 3 chippers DMD switching times? Like what can make a new color pixel faster, LED, or 3 chip?
 

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Anyone had the urge to purchase a new LED/Laser DLP projector to replace your current LED projector?
 

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Hi, Blee. Why, are you thinking of getting a replacement for your Q750?
I was thinking about it but not sure if I could. Only paid $400 for it and all the under $5k DLPs today are only brighter. I just bought a Digital Projection M-Vision Cine LED for $500. Had both the 600 and 1000 before and regretted selling the 600 version. So, I got it back. Probably see which one I want to keep or just keep both. No idea yet.

Since I'm using a 125in scope screen, I can use one as the 16:9, and the other for the fully scope size. Then, my JVC RS2000/N7 for all my 4k blu ray viewing. I'm watching mainly the Q750 majority of the time in my theater room. Was looking for the Benq HT9060 but none really available
 

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Correct, the upside is that eventually this will trickle down to more affordable options down the track. There are still a lot of brands that use DLP so maybe in a few years we may see more LED/Laser DLPs using this native 4k DMD chip.
That would be great. I want a 4k DLP but I want to see them next to my LED DLP to see if it's even worth it resolution wise. However, I do want a brighter led/ Laser 4k dlp projector
 

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Anybody with experience using a ProjectionDesign F32 WUXGA, or similar?

I've read that lamp replacement can be tricky because the modules themselves keep a timer, or something like that. I got one cheap off of eBay, but it was advertised as a higher-lumen model, and so I think I want to put more lamps in it because the screen I was to pair it with is pretty big. But I don't want to buy anything I can't use.
 

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Sim2 at CEDIA at least claimed that the Mico LEDs operate 20 times faster than color wheel.
.

Whereas the 18x equivalence figure discussed in the past for the Mico, compared to between 4x and 5x for most quality 1080p color wheel projectors, would suggest about 4 times faster.

I'm just going to come out and say it. 20 times faster is a lot more fasterer than 4 times faster is.

So, it would be good to know. Although I can add to the list of people saying they dont see rainbows on the Mico projectors. Troubleshooting another issue right now, but zero rainbows that I am aware of.
 

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I dont know if its relevant, but I thought about, how do they create black? The DLP - LED can just turn off the LEDs, but the 3 chip and color wheel DLPs, unless they can turn the bulb off and on quickly (I know they cant), then I guess they have to turn off the DMD?
I just wanted to follow up on your PM to me on comparing projectors DLP 3/DLP 1/ LCos etc. with which I had experience and address my subjective impressions of them in terms of how they present black/black levels and sequential contrast. Based on my impressions of them across a mix of content and in the space I viewed them, I would rank them in that regard by not focusing only on their native contrast capability but on how their overall dynamic function operates to produce the best black levels/sequential contrast onscreen. Again, this is just my subjective perception of them in terms of contrast since we don't watch an all black and all white screen as content. Also, keep in mind that other picture qualities can move one projector up or down my list, 1 being the best.

1. JVC X990 Lcos D-ILA lamp
2. JVC NX7 Lcos lamp
3. Runco LS-5 1 chip DLP lamp
4. Optoma UHZ65 1 chip DLP laser
5. Epson LS10000 LcoQ laser
6. Sony 695ES Lcos SXRD lamp
7. Runco LS-10 3 chip DLP lamp
8. Vivitek 9090 1 chip DLP LED
9. BenQ HT9060 1 chip DLP LED
10. Vivitek HK2299 1 chip DLP lamp
 

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Replace LED chips for Wolf Cinema DCL-200 FD (Chi Lin Technology):

What you need:
3121138


1. Take out the Top cover
3121140


2. Take out the Front cover:
3121143


3. Remove the Bottom Inner (4 screws):
3121145


4. Remove the Keypad Board (3 screws):
3121151


5. Remove the Video Board (disconnect cables & 9 screws):
3121156


6. Remove the Formatter Board (disconnect cables & 5 screws):
3121158


7. Open the LED Driver (5 screws):
3121164


8. Remove Radiator Module (4 screws):
3121168


9. Remove LED cables (2 screws):
3121169


3121170


10. Remove LEDs (9 screws):
3121172


11. Replace LEDs (disconnect cables & 6 screws):
3121178
 

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Replace LED chips for Wolf Cinema DCL-200 FD (Chi Lin Technology):

What you need:
View attachment 3121138

1. Take out the Top cover
View attachment 3121140

2. Take out the Front cover:
View attachment 3121143

3. Remove the Bottom Inner (4 screws):
View attachment 3121145

4. Remove the Keypad Board (3 screws):
View attachment 3121151

5. Remove the Video Board (disconnect cables & 9 screws):
View attachment 3121156

6. Remove the Formatter Board (disconnect cables & 5 screws):
View attachment 3121158

7. Open the LED Driver (5 screws):
View attachment 3121164

8. Remove Radiator Module (4 screws):
View attachment 3121168

9. Remove LED cables (2 screws):
View attachment 3121169

View attachment 3121170

10. Remove LEDs (9 screws):
View attachment 3121172

11. Replace LEDs (disconnect cables & 6 screws):
View attachment 3121178
Excellent work there! Posts like this are pure treasure for anyone looking to do such things.
I love stuff like this and thank you for posting it up even though I do not have one of these projectors.
I do now want to buy one just so I can perform this upgrade though.
Love it! Cheers. :):cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #2,639 ·
Replace LED chips for Wolf Cinema DCL-200 FD (Chi Lin Technology):

What you need:
View attachment 3121138

1. Take out the Top cover
View attachment 3121140

2. Take out the Front cover:
View attachment 3121143

3. Remove the Bottom Inner (4 screws):
View attachment 3121145

4. Remove the Keypad Board (3 screws):
View attachment 3121151

5. Remove the Video Board (disconnect cables & 9 screws):
View attachment 3121156

6. Remove the Formatter Board (disconnect cables & 5 screws):
View attachment 3121158

7. Open the LED Driver (5 screws):
View attachment 3121164

8. Remove Radiator Module (4 screws):
View attachment 3121168

9. Remove LED cables (2 screws):
View attachment 3121169

View attachment 3121170

10. Remove LEDs (9 screws):
View attachment 3121172

11. Replace LEDs (disconnect cables & 6 screws):
View attachment 3121178
Added link to post on page 1 thank you so much for taking the time, and thanks everyone who's contributed to detailing the led replacement in this thread.
 

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5,381 Posts
I just wanted to follow up on your PM to me on comparing projectors DLP 3/DLP 1/ LCos etc. with which I had experience and address my subjective impressions of them in terms of how they present black/black levels and sequential contrast. Based on my impressions of them across a mix of content and in the space I viewed them, I would rank them in that regard by not focusing only on their native contrast capability but on how their overall dynamic function operates to produce the best black levels/sequential contrast onscreen. Again, this is just my subjective perception of them in terms of contrast since we don't watch an all black and all white screen as content. Also, keep in mind that other picture qualities can move one projector up or down my list, 1 being the best.

1. JVC X990 Lcos D-ILA lamp
2. JVC NX7 Lcos lamp
3. Runco LS-5 1 chip DLP lamp
4. Optoma UHZ65 1 chip DLP laser
5. Epson LS10000 LcoQ laser
6. Sony 695ES Lcos SXRD lamp
7. Runco LS-10 3 chip DLP lamp
8. Vivitek 9090 1 chip DLP LED
9. BenQ HT9060 1 chip DLP LED
10. Vivitek HK2299 1 chip DLP lamp
Have you seen the Q750?
 
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