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Oh, more basic function improvements. There was only one instance of burn-in documented thus far and on a demo. As owners begin to accumulate hours, we'll begin to see how problematic that phenomenon really is.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488420


Oh, more basic function improvements. There was only one instance of burn-in documented thus far and on a demo. As owners begin to accumulate hours, we'll begin to see how problematic that phenomenon really is.

That was exactly my point.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488408


You are finally beginning to get it



All kidding aside, if Visio delivers the P Series and establishes 55" 4K FALD with good PQ for $1400, they will have shifted the market. They have not done it yet, they need to deliver and the resulting product needs to perform, but within 3-6 months that shift will either have happened or it will have been a false alarm. It would be suicidal to be betting on Vzio's failure - to do so in the case you were wrong would mean being totally out of alignment with the market shift.


Look at what Sharp has been doing. They introduced the SQ Quatron+ 1080p+/4K- line to offer 'near 4K' at a much more affordable price to a growing population of consumers interested in 4K but unable to afford the premium being charged by Sony and Samsung.


Those sets were introduced at CES and the 60" SQ had an MSRP of $2400. That's a pretty attractive price compared to the prices Sony and Samsung are charging for 'true' 4K.


That was only two months ago - those panels have just started hitting the market this month and with less than 2 weeks of sales under their belt, they are already available for a street price of $1740. That is a discount of 27.5% within the first 2 weeks of sales! The price of the Vizio 60" P Series? $1800.


For the 70" Sharp SQ, MSRP is $3400 currently discounted by 35% to $2200 against a 70" Vizio P Series that has an MSRP of $2600.


Sharp understands how Vizio's 2014 pricing has changed the world and they are reacting accordingly in an effort to not be left holding the bag.


LG is no doubt aware of this shift as well and so we'll see how it plays out as they introduce their larger OLED panels and the year unfolds...


If Sony is able to sell their 65" X950B for $8,000 in 2014 despite the fact that that is 'old' pricing, then LG should be fine. If you see that price slashed in half soon after introduction, it's a clear indication of blood in the water. Samsung 'leaked' pricing for their 65-inch H9000 and H8500 later than Sony and at $5000 and $4000, so they have already taken a big step towards adjusting to the new reality (compared to Sony). With a 55" Samsung H9000 edge-lit UHD selling for $4000 against an 55" Vizio P Series FALD UHD priced at $1400, it will be interesting to see how long Samsung is able to maintain their price premium of 185%...


Samsung will survive. LG will survive. Sharp may or may not survive. Sony should be able to survive for at least another year unless they stick their head in the sand. But odds are that $1400 for a 55-inch 4k FALD LCD is becoming a reality this year and all of these company's are going to be under significant financial strain (in terms of pricing and margins). It is likely to be a bloodbath. Looking at Sharp, it is likely already a bloodbath.


What this new reality will end up meaning for LGs OLED plans it is too early to say. By this year's Black Friday the dust will probably have settled even though it will probably take another 2-3 months for all of us to understand how.

Regarding Sharp, most Japanese companies have a fiscal year that ends March 31. This may have something to do with the steep price drops in that they want to boost 2013 earnings as much as possible because their financing/ability to barrow in fiscal 2014 may depend on improving 2013 results. Poor results = no new borrowing = bankruptcy.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488408



All kidding aside, if Visio delivers the P Series and establishes 55" 4K FALD with good PQ for $1400, they will have shifted the market. They have not done it yet, they need to deliver and the resulting product needs to perform, but within 3-6 months that shift will either have happened or it will have been a false alarm. It would be suicidal to be betting on Vzio's failure - to do so in the case you were wrong would mean being totally out of alignment with the market shift.


Look at what Sharp has been doing. They introduced the SQ Quatron+ 1080p+/4K- line to offer 'near 4K' at a much more affordable price to a growing population of consumers interested in 4K but unable to afford the premium being charged by Sony and Samsung.

Isnt Sharp's Gen 10 fab the source of Vizio's 4K panels?


We'll see what kind of picture quality Vizio manages to deliver at those prices. The premium for 4K was never going to be maintained, so the real question is how they have managed to deliver a FALD backlight at that price.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488273


And as an example of that the LG 55EA8800 is available on Amazon now at an MSRP of $10,000 discounted down to $7500.

Showing $5999 for me on 3/16 as of 9:52 am (PT) plus 2% cash back credit. Let's hope the price drop sticks this time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488843


Regarding Sharp, most Japanese companies have a fiscal year that ends March 31. This may have something to do with the steep price drops in that they want to boost 2013 earnings as much as possible because their financing/ability to barrow in fiscal 2014 may depend on improving 2013 results. Poor results = no new borrowing = bankruptcy.

You may be right about that - I believe I read somewhere that Sharp's bailout loan is tied to a condition that they maintain profitability, so a financial loss in 2013 could equal the end of the game...


On the other hand, if you believe street prices on the SQ are likely to be increasing after March 31st, that is a side bet I'd be interested to take.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488289


I didnt explain that comment well. I was trying to get across that the perception of OLED picture quality needs to move beyond the average AVS Forum vistor to the general high-end customer. It seems to me that plasma never managed to make this jump. While plasma's won the various shoot-outs and Kuro's were considered best of breed, the average upper middle class consumer never perceived much of a difference between plasmas and LCD's. There are all sorts of reasons for this, but whatever the explanation, OLED's will absolutely have to deliver that kind of differentiation if/when they move into the $2500 type of price point.

I'm not too worried about that. The thin profile with striking viewing angles and black levels will take care of that.


Plasma never presented itself that well in retail environments.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489553

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488273


And as an example of that the LG 55EA8800 is available on Amazon now at an MSRP of $10,000 discounted down to $7500.

Showing $5999 for me on 3/16 as of 9:52 am (PT) plus 2% cash back credit. Let's hope the price drop sticks this time.

Wow! That's a 40% discount off of MSRP within the first 2 weeks of sale. Even more 'Sharp-like' than Sharp!



But $6000 for a 55" TV is still a lot.


Isn't there a 70"+ LG OLED coming out as well? Has pricing on that been announced yet?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489591

Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24488289


I didnt explain that comment well. I was trying to get across that the perception of OLED picture quality needs to move beyond the average AVS Forum vistor to the general high-end customer. It seems to me that plasma never managed to make this jump. While plasma's won the various shoot-outs and Kuro's were considered best of breed, the average upper middle class consumer never perceived much of a difference between plasmas and LCD's. There are all sorts of reasons for this, but whatever the explanation, OLED's will absolutely have to deliver that kind of differentiation if/when they move into the $2500 type of price point.

I'm not too worried about that. The thin profile with striking viewing angles and black levels will take care of that.


Plasma never presented itself that well in retail environments.

Well said - I was thinking exactly the same thing. Plasma's lack of brightness made showing off superior PQ on the showroom floor basically impossible.


At a minimum, that is a major advantage OLED will have over plasma - it should look strikingly superior to LED/LCD and in the very worst case, look close enough to being the same that the price premium is difficult to justify...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8800_100#post_24489593


Wow! That's a 40% discount off of MSRP within the first 2 weeks of sale. Even more 'Sharp-like' than Sharp!



But $6000 for a 55" TV is still a lot.


Isn't there a 70"+ LG OLED coming out as well? Has pricing on that been announced yet?
I'm still seeing $6.5k for the Gallery OLED. The curve is down to $6k, yes.


CES announcements for the 77" ranged from $25 to 30k.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24489598


Well said - I was thinking exactly the same thing. Plasma's lack of brightness made showing off superior PQ on the showroom floor basically impossible.


At a minimum, that is a major advantage OLED will have over plasma - it should look strikingly superior to LED/LCD and in the very worst case, look close enough to being the same that the price premium is difficult to justify...
So you say OLED is brighter than LED/LCD. Is that true? I'm not saying it isn't, but it surprises me a little. In describing an LG 55" OLED in May 2012, hdguru wrote:
Quote:
Maximum brightness -was specified at 116.475 ft. lamberts (equal to 400 nits). This is brighter than any recent LED LCD we’ve seen or read from other tests (typically 200 to 250 nits with highest around 350).
http://hdguru.com/hands-on-lgs-55-inch-55em9600-oled-hdtv-part-ii/8080/
And this is consistent with what you say, but LED/LCD can get brighter. IIRC, the Vizio Reference TVs supposedly have 800 nits of brightness, the professional IMLED monitors have 4000 nits, the display that Dolby rigged up for their tests had 20,000 nits.


Added: Hdguru in his review of the LG 55EA9800 reported a maximum 105 foot-lamberts, or 360 nits, of brightness.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489904



the display that Dolby rigged up for their tests had 20,000 nits.
 

But wasn't that lit by a cinema projector? :)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24489980

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489904


the display that Dolby rigged up for their tests had 20,000 nits.

But wasn't that lit by a cinema projector?
No, 18,000 leds. See Geoffrey Morrison's Behind the scenes with Dolby's new HDR TV tech :
Quote:
To showcase its tech, Dolby built a prototype television. Based on its broadcast monitor, it's essentially a local-dimming backlight LCD on steroids. Where the $40,000 broadcast monitor has 4,500 individually addressable red, green, and blue LEDs, this prototype has 18,000 , and each one is addressable. To put that in perspective, top-of-the-line LED LCDs on the market now have a few hundred, and they are definitely not individually addressable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489904

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24489598


Well said - I was thinking exactly the same thing. Plasma's lack of brightness made showing off superior PQ on the showroom floor basically impossible.


At a minimum, that is a major advantage OLED will have over plasma - it should look strikingly superior to LED/LCD and in the very worst case, look close enough to being the same that the price premium is difficult to justify...
So you say OLED is brighter than LED/LCD. Is that true? I'm not saying it isn't, but it surprises me a little. In describing an LG 55" OLED in May 2012, hdguru wrote:
Quote:
Maximum brightness -was specified at 116.475 ft. lamberts (equal to 400 nits). This is brighter than any recent LED LCD we’ve seen or read from other tests (typically 200 to 250 nits with highest around 350).
http://hdguru.com/hands-on-lgs-55-inch-55em9600-oled-hdtv-part-ii/8080/
And this is consistent with what you say, but LED/LCD can get brighter. IIRC, the Vizio Reference TVs supposedly have 800 nits of brightness, the professional IMLED monitors have 4000 nits, the display that Dolby rigged up for their tests had 20,000 nits.


Added: Hdguru in his review of the LG 55EA9800 reported a maximum 105 foot-lamberts, or 360 nits, of brightness.

I did not mean to imply that OLED was brighter than LED/LCD, only that is was much closer to the brightness of LED/LCD than plasma was - no disadvantage versus LED/LCD on the showroom floor in terms of brightness, while I would hope that there should at least be easily-visible advantages in terms of contrast and off-angle viewing.


The key point about LED/LCD brightness is that is can be cranked up as high as needed subject only to increasing cost. At 800 Nits, the Vizio Reference Series will be one of the brightest consumer LED/LCDs ever produced. The E-Series is 300 Nits, by way of comparison, and that level of brightness is more typical of the LED/LCDs seen on the showroom floor. OLED can appear as bright as even the Vizio Reference Series for most typical content, but it I subject to limitation on total scene brightness, so if there is ever a need for increased brightness over the entire panel, LED/LCD has that latitude while OLED does not...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24490099

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterbrew2  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24489980

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24489904


the display that Dolby rigged up for their tests had 20,000 nits.

But wasn't that lit by a cinema projector?
No, 18,000 leds. See Geoffrey Morrison's Behind the scenes with Dolby's new HDR TV tech :
Quote:
To showcase its tech, Dolby built a prototype television. Based on its broadcast monitor, it's essentially a local-dimming backlight LCD on steroids. Where the $40,000 broadcast monitor has 4,500 individually addressable red, green, and blue LEDs, this prototype has 18,000 , and each one is addressable. To put that in perspective, top-of-the-line LED LCDs on the market now have a few hundred, and they are definitely not individually addressable.

To my point - LED/LCD offers the latitude to crank up brightness to essentially unlimited levels (subject only to power consumption and cost limitations). OLED is plenty bright (certainly compared to Panasonic plasma) but has far less headroom to increase brightness further should that ever prove necessary for HDR or motion blur reduction or whatever...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24490166


To my point - LED/LCD offers the latitude to crank up brightness to essentially unlimited levels (subject only to power consumption and cost limitations). OLED is plenty bright (certainly compared to Panasonic plasma) but has far less headroom to increase brightness further should that ever prove necessary for HDR or motion blur reduction or whatever...
In his article on the LG 55EA9800, Dr. Raymond M. Soneira gives more brightness test results: LG OLED TV Display Technology Shoot-Out - Lab Tests . The highest brightness he gives for the LG is 372 nits. When large areas of the screen are lit, the brightness is reduced, but I don't think that matters. For natural scenes, we want very high brightness (if we want it at all) for highlights.


I know that not everyone shares my fixation on brightness, but I dwell on it because I think it might be the key point in whether OLED comes to dominate the high end TV market. I want lots of brightness, and I don't think OLED can keep up with LED/LCD. But who knows? Maybe HDR will not become popular, or even if it does, maybe OLED can be brought up to 1000 nits or so (which I see some claims of).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8790#post_24491705

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/681125/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread/8760_60#post_24490166


To my point - LED/LCD offers the latitude to crank up brightness to essentially unlimited levels (subject only to power consumption and cost limitations). OLED is plenty bright (certainly compared to Panasonic plasma) but has far less headroom to increase brightness further should that ever prove necessary for HDR or motion blur reduction or whatever...
In his article on the LG 55EA9800, Dr. Raymond M. Soneira gives more brightness test results: LG OLED TV Display Technology Shoot-Out - Lab Tests . The highest brightness he gives for the LG is 372 nits. When large areas of the screen are lit, the brightness is reduced, but I don't think that matters. For natural scenes, we want very high brightness (if we want it at all) for highlights.


I know that not everyone shares my fixation on brightness, but I dwell on it because I think it might be the key point in whether OLED comes to dominate the high end TV market. I want lots of brightness, and I don't think OLED can keep up with LED/LCD. But who knows? Maybe HDR will not become popular, or even if it does, maybe OLED can be brought up to 1000 nits or so (which I see some claims of).

Peak brightness can be traded off for against motion blur. If the backlight is bright enough (let's say 800 Nits for the Vizio Reference Series), pixel on time can be reduced to 50%, 25%, even 10% of the overall 67ms frame time. An 800 Nit display with an action rate reducing maximum pixel on time to 10% results in a maximum light output of only 80Nits and an effective motion blur of a 600Hz refresh rate ('plasma-like').


I don't understand if OLED has the same flexibility to increase peak light output for a shorter amount of time in order to reduce pixel hold time, and a live-action broadcast of a hockey game would be a good example of a scenario where both high average brightness and reduced motion blur might both be desired.


For HDR and bright highlights, you are correct, but brightness offers advantages to reduce motion blur in sample-and-hold displays as well...


p.s. the Reference Series has an LCD with a 120Hz native refresh rate, so either through frame repeat or single-frame frame interpolation, brightness will probably be doubled to 160 Nits max for the same 600Hz effective refresh rate and motion blur...
 
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