AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 92 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have an old plasma TV (Kuro 60") that I think was considered to be a great TV in its day -- and still looks good to me.

I've been holding out for OLED as a replacement since I don't like the look of LEDs. I'm curious how one of LG's 65" OLEDs might compare to my 60" plasma.

I don't plan on upgrading until there's an affordable OLED screen >= 75" (which I guess might be around 2018 according to some recent threads here), but in the meantime I was just curious how the two technologies (plasma and OLED) compare in terms of image quality.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,387 Posts
I have an old plasma TV (Kuro 60") that I think was considered to be a great TV in its day -- and still looks good to me.

I've been holding out for OLED as a replacement since I don't like the look of LEDs. I'm curious how one of LG's 65" OLEDs might compare to my 60" plasma.

I don't plan on upgrading until there's an affordable OLED screen >= 75" (which I guess might be around 2018 according to some recent threads here), but in the meantime I was just curious how the two technologies (plasma and OLED) compare in terms of image quality.

Thanks
Welcome to avs, oled is the best option for anyone coming from plasma, specially a KURO. It has surpassed plasma and by 2018 it will be far superior when you decide to upgrade.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,783 Posts
I always wondered with all this talk about nits, how many nits is an F8500 plasma? I was just wondering because that is what I have now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
I am also currently owning a Kuro ( LX-5090H ) and am considering upgrading to OLED. Especially when it comes to Smart TV options my Kuro is truly outdated. Does somebody know how many nits such an old Kuro Plasma has? From what I've seen so far, the black levels of the OLEDs are impeccable. How does the motion quality of a Kuro Plasma compare to LG's OLEDs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
668 Posts
Guess we better wait till this issue is resolved then cause i hate motion blur!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
If you notice motion (which many AVS members either can't detect or don't care about) plasma still beats OLED.
I can't understand how somebody can't notice it. I'll wait for the new LG OLED Series and see for myself. However, with more than $8k for the new G Series the motion quality better be good. Otherwise I'll rather wait for Panasonic to release a new OLED. At least their motion interpolation is good. But what I've seen from LG so far is terrible.

If you are mainly after "smart features" and are otherwise happy, just buy a Roku or similar little box that's easy to upgrade/replace.
I'm not only after the Smart TV features. I'd like to have a bigger screen, too. At some point even the Kuros become outdated. :D I mean the colors and black level on the OLEDs are great. But for the prices they are demanding, the TV better be nearly perfect. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,188 Posts
Here is what I think where plasmas vs. OLEDs stand

1) Black level : Today's OLEDs have much better black level than even the 9.5G Kuros, especially when ANSI is considered. 2015 OLED models currently suffer from minor floating black, but from my viewing, ANSI was left untouched thankfully, so colors still pop like crazy. Think of OLED as supercharged Kuro when it comes to black level. You won't be disappointed. Some Kuro owners may feel the difference isn't night and day, but that's because we're still dealing with 8bit SDR contents which only have black level of 0.1 cd/m2. Plasmas were also capped by this unfortunate limitation, despite their excellent contrast ratio.

2) Greyscale : When I saw the calibrated LG EC9700 OLED, I could still detect black crush on some of the scenes. (near black like black suit) This area may be where your Kuro is still better, but because OLEDs have such good black level, personally, it wasn't really a big deal.

3) Brightness : For those curious about Kuro's ABL,

https://www.google.ca/search?q=kuro+abl+tweak&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=643&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin7bDOqZ7KAhXLJx4KHfdGCXQQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=EBooP_e52M0WUM:

this thread will help. Untweaked Kuro has 200 cd/m2 of peak luminance at 0% APL, but quickly lose steam. OLED TVs have better peak brightness and ABL than even the tweaked Kuro. Today's OLED TVs exceed 200 cd/m2 at 50% APL, 130 cd/m2 at 100% APL, and the 2016 models will only get better. The Samsung F8500 is no longer competitive as it can only garner 96 cd/m2 at 100% APL. LCD owners are still scoffing at OLED's brightness, but if you're coming from a plasma, you will have no complaints.

4) Uniformity : OLED's don't have as good uniformity as plasmas yet, but what they stand out is that they are very clean-looking, not dirty like PWM-laden plasmas. I personally found that a plus over my plasmas. It's not always a good thing though as it can make less than perfect sources stand out too much. I had to step back once a Bluray movie (irobot) was played on the EC9700 as 4K upscaling was disgusting up close.

5) HDR : Do you like the look of your Kuro? Do you like how your plasma has that certain charm with its natural presentation and smoothness? Then you will be very glad to know OLED + HDR will pretty much make it look similiar to a plasma. It may be an irony, but today's OLEDs are plenty competitive when it comes to brightness so 8 bit sources can look as excessive as LCDs if you max up the brightness. But with HDR, you're actually going backwards. HDR is not just about increasing brightness so black area also get smooth and very natural. It really was a throwback to plasma days, only better. You will be glad to know HDR will actually make things easy on the eyes.

6) Motions : Here is where things fall apart. OLEDs do have very good response time. It's clean, snappy, and smooth. But in the end, it's still a sample and hold based display. I personally found 60hz sources acceptable because OLED's response time do make up for 300 lines of motion resolution. 24hz movies were where sample and hold reared its ugly head as 150 lines is simply not enough. I compared irobot, fast action movies like Mad Max and it was a landslide victory for my plasmas. Plasmas, while they're not perfect with motions, still managed to instill a feeling that frames are connected, the OLED simply failed to do so. It was like watching a clinical process of disjointed frames that comes with ugly judders. Worst thing with the LG EG9700 was, I was no longer enjoying movies like I have been with my plasmas. I was not drawn "into" the movie. I was simply analyzing disjointed frames "outside" the movie.

In the end, I gave up my plan to purchase an OLED TV for 8bit HD Bluray watching. HDR is still a big deal for me, so I will still buy one for UHD BDs. Who knows? I may change my mind once I see BFI enabled OLED. But for now, I've decided to purchase the 65 inches Panasonic VT60 for my movie needs. It may have less contrast ratio, but will more than make up with its motion performance.

So try watching a movie on an OLED TV. See how much you like it. Then make your decision. The rest, like contrast ratio, color accuracy are all sailing smoothly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,098 Posts
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that KOF's account on motion is without frame interpolation, so if that's something you aren't allergic to or actually like then motion on OLED may very well be a complete non-issue.

The funny thing is that you could easily have black-frame insertion on an OLED display since the response time is as fast as it is, and if you're already a plasma owner the reduction in brightness likely wouldn't be too much of an issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,188 Posts
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that KOF's account on motion is without frame interpolation, so if that's something you aren't allergic to or actually like then motion on OLED may very well be a complete non-issue.

The funny thing is that you could easily have black-frame insertion on an OLED display since the response time is as fast as it is, and if you're already a plasma owner the reduction in brightness likely wouldn't be too much of an issue.
Yes, I should have stated so. Unfortunately, if we're bringing in frame interpolation, then it will be even more gloomy than it already is as even the budget Samsung/Sony TVs beat it handily. For right contents, I have no qualms on frame interpolation done right like Panasonic/Samsung/Sony TVs, but can't say the same for LG OLEDs as interpolation speed hops up and down like crazy...like back when Samsung had crappy motion interpolation and that was like 7 years ago. Sad, sad. I personally wouldn't use LG's frame interpolation for movies at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,990 Posts
I went from LCd to Plasma, i use the TV mainly for movies. On a decent Plasma everything is way more fluent and natural resulting in much better movie experience. Since OLED uses Sample & Hold just like LCd i wait till there are more manufacturers with more motion improvement power in place. Also for the time being i am not in the mood going back to mediocre motion or the side effects of motion smoothing options.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks KOF and others for the in depth responses. I have to be honest -- a lot of these acronyms and technologies you and others have discussed are over my head. I don't follow this stuff all that closely. I got my KURO. I loved it. And then I kind of mentally checked out of the technological changes that have been happening ever since... and now I'm dipping my toe back in the water, so to speak.

Basically, my problem with all the LEDs I've seen is the "soap opera" effect. The pictures don't (or didn't) look natural -- or maybe I have it the wrong way around. Maybe they look too natural and too real. In any case, as a follow-up question to my original post, has this soap-opera effect in LEDs been addressed recently via HDR, 4K, and/or other technologies? If I don't want to wait a few more years for an affordable OLED and instead buy a nice, large, high-end LED television, has the picture quality progressed in the last couple of years so that I won't have to worry about the soap-opera thing?

Obviously there are more issues than just the soap-opera thing, but that was always the one thing that kept me from embracing LEDs. The rest of the issues (motion, brightness, contrast, etc.) are not as much of a concern. Perhaps I just don't know enough to realize how important they are. But as an uneducated consumer, I ultimately just go by my gut level viewing. In other words, does the picture look good or not? Does it look natural or like a soap opera?

Long story short, if I were to just get an LED instead of waiting a few more years for OLED and other new tech will I still be disappointed? They all seem to look good in the stores, but in the real world I haven't seen an LED that looked really good. Maybe my friends and I just don't know how to tune / adjust them or whatever. And maybe they've advanced recently.

Anyway, thanks again and thanks in advance for any more insights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,188 Posts
Thanks KOF and others for the in depth responses. I have to be honest -- a lot of these acronyms and technologies you and others have discussed are over my head. I don't follow this stuff all that closely. I got my KURO. I loved it. And then I kind of mentally checked out of the technological changes that have been happening ever since... and now I'm dipping my toe back in the water, so to speak.

Basically, my problem with all the LEDs I've seen is the "soap opera" effect. The pictures don't (or didn't) look natural -- or maybe I have it the wrong way around. Maybe they look too natural and too real. In any case, as a follow-up question to my original post, has this soap-opera effect in LEDs been addressed recently via HDR, 4K, and/or other technologies? If I don't want to wait a few more years for an affordable OLED and instead buy a nice, large, high-end LED television, has the picture quality progressed in the last couple of years so that I won't have to worry about the soap-opera thing?

Obviously there are more issues than just the soap-opera thing, but that was always the one thing that kept me from embracing LEDs. The rest of the issues (motion, brightness, contrast, etc.) are not as much of a concern. Perhaps I just don't know enough to realize how important they are. But as an uneducated consumer, I ultimately just go by my gut level viewing. In other words, does the picture look good or not? Does it look natural or like a soap opera?

Long story short, if I were to just get an LED instead of waiting a few more years for OLED and other new tech will I still be disappointed? They all seem to look good in the stores, but in the real world I haven't seen an LED that looked really good. Maybe my friends and I just don't know how to tune / adjust them or whatever. And maybe they've advanced recently.

Anyway, thanks again and thanks in advance for any more insights.
If you detest (soap-opera inducing) frame interpolation more than contrast ratio, here's my recommendation. Buy a used 65 inches plasma TV and hold on to it, or if you're satisfied with 60 inches for now, keep your Kuro until there are OLEDs available with good frame interpolation.

I will say this though. At least OLED TV is the first sample-and-hold display that I could at least watch without a need for frame interpolation. I can't say the same for LCDs. Their response time is the poorest, so I get dizzy when in panning motion (Uncharted game) so for LCDs, it's really a two-fold problem when OLEDs at least only have one issue. Yes, LCDs currently have superior frame interpolation technology/BFI to OLEDs, but at the core, they have serious issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
391 Posts
I think that LG can't be that silly not to include a good frame interpolation in their TVs if they technically could. I am guessing that the OLEDs need a lot of calculation to take care of OLED specific issues so that no processing power is left for FI. Did you notice Panasonic had to use the older user interface in their OLED ?

Putting in better and faster processors in 2016 could help (me hoping :rolleyes:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,033 Posts
Thanks KOF for your detailed responses. As excited as I am about the OLED's, my Kuro (pro 151) is best enjoyed watching Blu Ray's. I'd hate for that experience to be compromised with OLED due to motion issues and I hate the soap opera effect on movies. Even watching the Hobbit in HFR was not something I enjoyed. To be more detailed, I enjoyed the clarity being kept in fast moving scenes but not the motion of the actors. For me, a mix of both would be ideal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,105 Posts
Great discussion. I have a 10 year old Pioneer Elite 50" plasma that I'm hoping will hold on until OLED is available with features I want (and not those I don't want) at an affordable price.
I love the way my plasma has such a clean look. The external control box keeps connections nice and clean. I can't believe anyone spending that much money on an OLED really wants a sound bar, especially one that's not removable.
I would also like an OLED that can use my full motion wall mount without some kind of a kludge. And I want flat, not curved.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,119 Posts
I can't understand how somebody can't notice it. I'll wait for the new LG OLED Series and see for myself. However, with more than $8k for the new G Series the motion quality better be good. Otherwise I'll rather wait for Panasonic to release a new OLED. At least their motion interpolation is good. But what I've seen from LG so far is terrible.
They're still flicker-free displays, so they're still going to have a ton of motion blur.

Basically, my problem with all the LEDs I've seen is the "soap opera" effect. The pictures don't (or didn't) look natural -- or maybe I have it the wrong way around. Maybe they look too natural and too real. In any case, as a follow-up question to my original post, has this soap-opera effect in LEDs been addressed recently via HDR, 4K, and/or other technologies? If I don't want to wait a few more years for an affordable OLED and instead buy a nice, large, high-end LED television, has the picture quality progressed in the last couple of years so that I won't have to worry about the soap-opera thing?
The "soap opera effect" only happens when you have interpolation enabled. I can't think of a display that includes interpolation without the option of disabling it.
However that is how the film actually looks when viewed natively at 24Hz. The reason that nothing displays film natively at 24Hz though, is because there is unacceptable flicker from the display when doing so.
The problem with interpolation is that while it can restore the original smoothness of the film, it's far from perfect, and tends to introduce a lot of ugly artifacts into the image. And as others have said, LG's interpolation does not seem to be on the same level as others.

Thanks KOF for your detailed responses. As excited as I am about the OLED's, my Kuro (pro 151) is best enjoyed watching Blu Ray's. I'd hate for that experience to be compromised with OLED due to motion issues and I hate the soap opera effect on movies. Even watching the Hobbit in HFR was not something I enjoyed. To be more detailed, I enjoyed the clarity being kept in fast moving scenes but not the motion of the actors. For me, a mix of both would be ideal.
I think the issue is just that people are not used to seeing films with fluid motion. One HFR film is not nearly enough to adapt to, after a lifetime of seeing films presented with awful juddering motion.
If everything were suddenly shot in HFR from now onwards, I think people would quickly adapt and wonder how the hell anyone found 24 FPS acceptable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
Also considering the Switch

I currently have the Pro-150FD and am considering switching to the 65E6. To me, the colors pop even more on the LG and the picture provides a great deal more depth. For things like sports, there is no comparison as the upconverting engine makes the picture have far more detail. Reading these posts would suggest that many may prefer the look of the Pioneer plasmas to the OLED.

Have others not noticed a richer deeper picture on the LG ie the EF9500? Am I crazy?
 
1 - 20 of 92 Posts
Top