I've been looking at a LOT of designs... mainly two vs three way designs. I have a THT, and I'm looking to build the front/center/surrounds to go with it... I understand the benefits of a folded horn... and I noticed that there are some designs for a full range single driver high efficiency horn... so how would that compare to another design, 2/3way? What's the deal with the full range drivers?
One, two or three way speakers?
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Full range drivers are drivers that are too small to reproduce bass, and too large to reproduce treble. Now, since you are going to have a subwoofer, let's say that the bass aspect is covered, as any driver worth its salt will go down to 80Hz easily. That still leaves the treble unhandled, and directionality of upper midrange will be an issue. IMO single driver speakers are a fancy excuse for something that is expensive, doesn't deliver, and needs a large box. "Hey, it's ONE speaker after all".
If it's the first time you are building speakers, i'd go for a 2-way design. Look for a tweeter that can be crossed at 3kHz or lower to make things easier for you when you do the crossover. Most midbass drivers sound bad past 3kHz, it's a good idea to cross there.
If it's the first time you are building speakers, i'd go for a 2-way design. Look for a tweeter that can be crossed at 3kHz or lower to make things easier for you when you do the crossover. Most midbass drivers sound bad past 3kHz, it's a good idea to cross there.
bbowers, there is no "right" answer or "optimal" design for everybody, so don't pull your hair out trying to find it. i'm a fan of high efficiency, two-way, horn loaded, mains. get a 90 degree horn and a high sensitivity 12" or 15" and you will be on your way. so many options.
most tweeters/ribbons only go down to maybe 2500Hz or 2K Hz (most are 3K and above). Most woofers that perform very well below 80Hz only play well up to maybe 700Hz (Yes there are exceptions) so sometimes a great mid range driver is needed. Hence the need for a 3 way design.
Horns play lower they can go down to below 1000Hz (ala Geddes) so you can get a 2-way with a great woofer.
The simple fact is that your driver, performance requirements will dictate if you build a 2 way or 3 way.
I have a great 3 way and I have a great 2 way. I think both are awesome and I would build more of each in the future. There isnt really a "one is better" scenario. Each has its own merits.
What Im learning is that the 800Hz to 3KHz range is the hard area to get coverage with without having limited bass or bad upper frequencies.
Horns play lower they can go down to below 1000Hz (ala Geddes) so you can get a 2-way with a great woofer.
The simple fact is that your driver, performance requirements will dictate if you build a 2 way or 3 way.
I have a great 3 way and I have a great 2 way. I think both are awesome and I would build more of each in the future. There isnt really a "one is better" scenario. Each has its own merits.
What Im learning is that the 800Hz to 3KHz range is the hard area to get coverage with without having limited bass or bad upper frequencies.
Cool, good info, thanks. I was just wondering what the deal was with the single driver... I couldn't imagine it would be that great.
I did make my THT myself, I was going to start with a nice center channel design and build that. I shouldn't have any issues as I am fairly resourceful building things. Currently the center channel Im using is a KRK Rokit RP-6 studio monitor, which is a two way design, spec sheet indicates a 6 in. glass aramid composite woofer, 1 in. neodymium soft dome tweeter with ferro fluid... It does a good job considering what I paid for it. The other speakers are new sony floorstand and bookshelf models which are adequate for my needs.
I understand that speakers should be matched... right now I'd say mine aren't, but I don't notice. But going forward I would like to match the front/center. I've been considering the following:
TriTrix
CJD RS150 MTM's
Natalie P
Modula MTM
Or maybe Mini/Statements
I have a Bic V1020 picking up the bass from 100Hz to whatever it can do on the low end, and the THT on full duty from 50Hz to the depths of hell that it belts out... I plan to keep BOTH subs in the mix as I do turn the THT off for late night as it's just too much, and the V1020 handles that better.
I did make my THT myself, I was going to start with a nice center channel design and build that. I shouldn't have any issues as I am fairly resourceful building things. Currently the center channel Im using is a KRK Rokit RP-6 studio monitor, which is a two way design, spec sheet indicates a 6 in. glass aramid composite woofer, 1 in. neodymium soft dome tweeter with ferro fluid... It does a good job considering what I paid for it. The other speakers are new sony floorstand and bookshelf models which are adequate for my needs.
I understand that speakers should be matched... right now I'd say mine aren't, but I don't notice. But going forward I would like to match the front/center. I've been considering the following:
TriTrix
CJD RS150 MTM's
Natalie P
Modula MTM
Or maybe Mini/Statements
I have a Bic V1020 picking up the bass from 100Hz to whatever it can do on the low end, and the THT on full duty from 50Hz to the depths of hell that it belts out... I plan to keep BOTH subs in the mix as I do turn the THT off for late night as it's just too much, and the V1020 handles that better.
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Check out the HT Guide mision accomplished section. When you get ready to pick, throw me a PM and take a ride to rochester and I'll give you a demo on how good DIY can sound.
I built three center channel WTMW for main LCR ( my build starts on page 5 of that thread ) , four twoway side surrounds and a big four driver subwoofer system.
KG
I built three center channel WTMW for main LCR ( my build starts on page 5 of that thread ) , four twoway side surrounds and a big four driver subwoofer system.
KG
Thats a wide variety of price ranges. I have been looking for a highly efficient speaker design to compliment my THT. I dont have the budget you do or else the ministatements would be a no brainer. I have been looking into some of the econowave designs. Those are another option you havent mentioned above.
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1,083 Posts
Tough decision, you are going to build a set that you have not heard. I built a set of the wwmt's (like kgveteran's) and could not be happier. You would probably be happy with any of the htguides that long threads with many happy campers.
Of course, a mother always loves her babies.
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Of course, a mother always loves her babies.
I'll be happy with anything I build over what I have... then I go through my regular process of measuring and analyzing, seeing if it actually does what I want over many months, or years, and decide that it's time to move on to something else....something better. Build the new, compare, analyze, lather, rinse, repeat.
Right now the studio monitor has been reduced again to center channel on its side duty because of the new TV stand I got. Can't stand it upright in front of the tv...so I'm starting to definitely look at center channel builds first and foremost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digital desire /forum/post/18181647
Tough decision, you are going to build a set that you have not heard. I built a set of the wwmt's (like kgveteran's) and could not be happier. You would probably be happy with any of the htguides that long threads with many happy campers.
Of course, a mother always loves her babies.![]()
I'll be happy with anything I build over what I have... then I go through my regular process of measuring and analyzing, seeing if it actually does what I want over many months, or years, and decide that it's time to move on to something else....something better. Build the new, compare, analyze, lather, rinse, repeat.
Right now the studio monitor has been reduced again to center channel on its side duty because of the new TV stand I got. Can't stand it upright in front of the tv...so I'm starting to definitely look at center channel builds first and foremost.
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2,602 Posts
THREE
i hope that was clear enough.
if not read this article:
http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=436
all serious designs which don't use exotic technologies such as array, line source or flat panel direct radiators are AT LEAST THREE WAY.
THREE, FOUR AND FIVE WAY is the way to go.
2-way is el-cheapo garbage and full range is for people who don't live in this universe.
in other news the fascists at DIY Audio banned me again ...
THREE
i hope that was clear enough.
if not read this article:
http://www.diy-av.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=436
all serious designs which don't use exotic technologies such as array, line source or flat panel direct radiators are AT LEAST THREE WAY.
THREE, FOUR AND FIVE WAY is the way to go.
2-way is el-cheapo garbage and full range is for people who don't live in this universe.
in other news the fascists at DIY Audio banned me again ...
Please, There are TONS of HIGH END mains that are 2-way....open your eyes!!! Its called integrating a sub system and not worrying about getting that low. Plus you obviously do not remember that crossovers are evil, the more crossover the less chance of perfection.
Your vacation from this forum wasn't long enough
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They should!!
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Please, There are TONS of HIGH END mains that are 2-way....open your eyes!!! Its called integrating a sub system and not worrying about getting that low. Plus you obviously do not remember that crossovers are evil, the more crossover the less chance of perfection.
Your vacation from this forum wasn't long enough
They should!!
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2,674 Posts
Although most of them don't work well even with a sub-woofer due to the polar response mismatch between a conventional dome tweeter requiring a high cross-over point and mid-bass that's large enough to meet a sub-woofer at 80-120Hz.
Obviously the wave guide + large mid-bass with matching -6dB angle approach you're playing with is a good exception.
Linkwitz's 1.6" mid-tweeter on a 2" baffle + horizontal 6" mid-woofer and 1KHz cross-over approach work well.
Open baffle speakers where the mid-woofer(s) is broadening due to the dipole peak matted to a tweeter with a 1.5Khz cross-over work reasonably (but need a high sub cross-over).
The Seas coaxials (where the cone acts as a wave guide for the tweeter) work well in an open baffle; I haven't heard them in conventional enclosures.
The Seas DXT tweeters and other proprietary small wave guides should work well.
"High end" has more to do with "high price" than performance, although if you're lucky you'll get that too.
Although most of them don't work well even with a sub-woofer due to the polar response mismatch between a conventional dome tweeter requiring a high cross-over point and mid-bass that's large enough to meet a sub-woofer at 80-120Hz.
Obviously the wave guide + large mid-bass with matching -6dB angle approach you're playing with is a good exception.
Linkwitz's 1.6" mid-tweeter on a 2" baffle + horizontal 6" mid-woofer and 1KHz cross-over approach work well.
Open baffle speakers where the mid-woofer(s) is broadening due to the dipole peak matted to a tweeter with a 1.5Khz cross-over work reasonably (but need a high sub cross-over).
The Seas coaxials (where the cone acts as a wave guide for the tweeter) work well in an open baffle; I haven't heard them in conventional enclosures.
The Seas DXT tweeters and other proprietary small wave guides should work well.
"High end" has more to do with "high price" than performance, although if you're lucky you'll get that too.
Ok... I've decided I don't want something huge... 2ft wide and over a foot tall is too big for a center for my setup. I'm looking for something under 2ft wide, and under 1ft tall. depth isn't a HUGE issue but I don't want it taking up the whole shelf.
I need something that will match well with a THT and a Bic V1020... Those two are staying. The rest of my speakers will go away once I build replacements, so in my opinion they are irrelevant.
Next weekend, the 12th, 13th etc... I'll be visiting my sister and watching a friend in a rock climbing competition. I'll have access to a table saw and a bunch of other tools to cut the pieces out for a center channel so I'd like to have a design picked out by then. I'll just be buying the wood and cutting pieces and holes, I won't have components yet though.
So far my choices are as follows:
Natalie P center
CJD RS150 MTM
Dayton RS WMTW
I need to figure this out soon so I can make plans with my brother in law to get this cut out.
I need something that will match well with a THT and a Bic V1020... Those two are staying. The rest of my speakers will go away once I build replacements, so in my opinion they are irrelevant.
Next weekend, the 12th, 13th etc... I'll be visiting my sister and watching a friend in a rock climbing competition. I'll have access to a table saw and a bunch of other tools to cut the pieces out for a center channel so I'd like to have a design picked out by then. I'll just be buying the wood and cutting pieces and holes, I won't have components yet though.
So far my choices are as follows:
Natalie P center
CJD RS150 MTM
Dayton RS WMTW
I need to figure this out soon so I can make plans with my brother in law to get this cut out.
I was never considering it anyway, just wanted some information on it...that's all.
Ok, my plans are confirmed for this weekend. So now I need to pick a design and get the details worked out before Thursday night. I was hoping that my mains will be the Tritrix kits from PE... that being said I guess I'll be doing my center channel as MDF instead of plywood.
Anyway... If I were doing a Tritrix kit for the mains, what would I be doing for the center? I keep flip flopping on ideas and need to stop haha... My only issue is that I'm restricted by height to no more than 10" at the absolute MAX... depth needs to be no more than 15", less if possible. I can however go wider if need be.
Pic for reference of where it needs to fit and what it is replacing.
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I was never considering it anyway, just wanted some information on it...that's all.
Ok, my plans are confirmed for this weekend. So now I need to pick a design and get the details worked out before Thursday night. I was hoping that my mains will be the Tritrix kits from PE... that being said I guess I'll be doing my center channel as MDF instead of plywood.
Anyway... If I were doing a Tritrix kit for the mains, what would I be doing for the center? I keep flip flopping on ideas and need to stop haha... My only issue is that I'm restricted by height to no more than 10" at the absolute MAX... depth needs to be no more than 15", less if possible. I can however go wider if need be.
Pic for reference of where it needs to fit and what it is replacing.
"2-way is el-cheapo garbage"
lol. 73 years of testimony to a winner suggests you are wrong.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...mco/iconic.htm
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/k2.htm
http://jblsynthesis.com/products/sys...=US&Region=USA
maybe they added a super tweet for effect, but the core is still two-way el-cheapo garbage. ;-)
lol. 73 years of testimony to a winner suggests you are wrong.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...mco/iconic.htm
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/k2.htm
http://jblsynthesis.com/products/sys...=US&Region=USA
maybe they added a super tweet for effect, but the core is still two-way el-cheapo garbage. ;-)
3-way. I like them because it enables you to get the BEST midrange possible. I find that Fostex full-range drivers are better applied to a midrange application in a 3-way. Voices are ethereal if supported with a top-notch tweeter.
I basically think of speaker building as how can I get the best midrange sound possible, and then support it on either end with tweeters and (sub)woofers.
I basically think of speaker building as how can I get the best midrange sound possible, and then support it on either end with tweeters and (sub)woofers.
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