[rv]

Wanted to gather an opinion poll...how many people feel that integrated receivers...i.e. from the likes of Denon, Yamaha, Rotel, Marantz, etc. are as good as the separtes from the same companies, or similar companies...Here's an example...do you think the Denon 4800 would be as good as say separate amps/processors from Rotel?


How about using these receivers to drive B&W Nautilus 805's as another example?


Let's hear your opinions!


RV

 

[Bob Sorel]

Wow, did you hit home with that topic! I just did some extensive comparisons of some of the gear you mentioned: Yamaha, Denon (5700, not 4800), Rotel, Marantz, and some that you didn't mention: B&K, Lexicon, Sunfire, and a few others. In my quest for upgrading my audio system, I was convinced that I would be going the separates route, but to my own surprise I ended up buying the Yamaha RX-V1 instead. Yes, separates are more versatile in that you can upgrade on either end more easily in the future, but the Yamaha sounds so darned good just the way it is for $2349, I found that the difference in quality between it and the Lexicon MC-1/Earthquake combo (my other choice)at $10,000 was too small to mention. Yes, the $10,000 setup is better, but nowhere near $7651 better. If the Lex/Earthquake cost $2500, I probably would have bought it. Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention, I compared all the different gear using Nautilus 805's with the ASW 3000 sub, as they were my speakers of choice at the time (though I've found some better ones for less money now). I hope this answers your question http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

[Greg_R]

I went through a similar situation last year. After auditioning a large amount of equiptment, I ended up going with the Denon AVR-5700. The newest round of receivers are also incorporating SW upgradability... eliminating one of their major disadvantages.


Greg

 

[tommyboy2]

Bob,


Which speakers did you buy? Don't worry about offending me with regards to Paradigm. Heck, if you found something better and cheaper than I'd like to know!


Do tell.


Tom

 

[Nick Satullo]

In some isolated cases, the high end receivers or integrated amplifiers will compare favorably to mid-level separates. But for my money, what you can do with a good value driven set of separates, like Rotel, surpasses anything that you can get in one box.


Although the Denon receivers are very good (and I own the AVR-3300 in my basement setup), I like the Yamaha integrated amps better. But I simply do not find the amplifier quality as good in either as in most of the separates.

 

[Nathan Ivey]

I also was going to buy the RX-V1 until I decided on Theta.


I must agree that based on build quality and what the previous Yamaha's have to offer it probably is close to seperates.


RX-V1 is the best receiver but I wouldn't put it up against a Classe, Theta, or EAD any time soon.


With limited space and implementation there are always drawbacks. I think that the receivers will probably suffer the worst defeat in stereo mode.


Sometimes I wonder...... could have got the RX-V1 for $1800 but Yamaha canceled our dealership. Now it's back and the RX-V1's will be here this week.


The only other thing is the flexibility of a pre-amp especially Theta.


Crossover 3 diff kinds plus you can adjust the phase slope and frequency.

Ability to boost and cut high compression and Low compression signals. Like boosting high compression cut back on loud scenes boosting LCOMP raises quite scenes. I believe these two features alone are worth my purchase.


Some people are just right for receivers and some receivers are just right for there people. The RX-V1 is the best IMO.... I will soon compare the RX-V1 to the Onkyo integra DTR-9.1 both have the same retail and simular power but I have a feeling the Yamaha will win. I wanted the RXV also till Yamaha screwed us and then turned over again.

 

[mdavis]

I'm going to go against the flow here. This post is not excluding the top tier, however deciding which is "top" and "medium" tier is also arguable. And the top tier features continually flow to the mid-tier as time passes.


Off the top of my head, here goes:


I think there are differences:


1. the tech. specs on separates tend to be much better. If you have associated equipment that can take advantage of these gains, great.


For instance, THD on the Denon is .05%...my amp is 10X better. (of course, all of this is irrelevant unless we know which harmonics this accounts for...but, I'll take the lower thank you.)


What's the S/N on the amp section? My amp is over 135 and my amp is nowhere near the best there is (a couple of Classe amps)

What is the damping factor on the amp section?

What kind of power supply are you going to get? What size/type caps?

What is the input/output impedence?

Will it handle a 2 ohm load on all speakers at the same time???

Does power double down at 1/2 impedence?

What's the THD on the subwoofer outputs? Sound and Vision recently did some horrible measurements and unfairly compared received w/different measurement methods....If the magazine didn't come free for 3 years, I definitely wouldn't waste my time browsing it.


2. features & upgradability:


A. Does it have EPROM/Flash upgradable S/W? Else, it's going

to be obsolete real soon, even with discrete DTS6.1. You know

there will be a next big thing. Care to predict what this will

be? The latest TPV has some interesting articles. Will it allow

you to configure it with your computer? Save configuration

settings on computer? Digital backplane? (ala. Lexicon MC-1)

Daughter card architecture (ala. Meridian 861), no si on motherboard.

B. Does it have 6-8 analog inputs for SACD?

C. Will it decode DSD/SACD?

D. Will it handle DVD-A with various copy protection systems?

E. Can it support XLRs?

F. Does it do 7.1 ala Logic 7 or 8.4 ala. Cassablanca II? I mean, I'm talking about algorithms on par with Music Logic, Music Surround, and Logic 7. Not simply sending the signal to lots of speakers...

G. How about bass management

1. does it allow you to change slopes, as in the Theta preamps?

2. does it allow you to change crossover settings to 1Hz? (Theta, Meridian, EAD, others...dammit Lexicon)

3. does it support phase manipulation features like bass enhance?

4. does it handle 2-channel + sub properly? (w/o doubling bass in some cases?)

H. Will it support external digital EQ? (digital outputs)

I. Will it do upsampling? (ala. Meridian? and many other standalone devices)

J. Will it do the digital EQ? (ala. Meridian 861 + Z310 card?)

K. Will it support 12 to 16 channels? (ala. future 861)

L. Can you bridge the amps channels?

M. How good is the protection circuitry on the amps?

N. Firewire IEEE 1394 support? How about whatever medium is next??


Amp/Preamp combos are inherently better, not only due to the features they now support and the ones they can support in the future, but also because you can pick and choose the best amp and preamp for your configuration. Also, if preamps drastically change, you can always replace that portion and stick with a very solid amplifier -- I've found significant differences in the sound of quality amplifiers in my system.



3. Quality of sound


In the end, separates are inherently better. No problems with amp/preamp section interference, no problems with heat issues, no problems with size constraints (relative), no problems w/cost sensitivity to the avg. consumer (which receivers cater to), etc. Also, separates tend to have very specialized digital filters, like you see in Theta components.


The thing I'm not going to touch here is -- which sounds better. You decide for yourself. I've listened and decided for myself. I think some of the latest receivers are excellent products, but they are in a different league from what is possible in separates.


I believe my audio system composed of separates gives me a much better HT experience than I'd receive with a high-end receiver.

I'm not quite sure that any receivers could even drive my Aerial 10Ts + CC3 + SR3s at reasonable volumes?? ...And what about Electrostats?


In the bang-for-your-buck category, you'd probably want to look at used separates...



Best Regards, Mark



[This message has been edited by mdavis (edited June 27, 2000).]

 

[migliore]

separates or die.

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
Migliore Theater

 

[Steve Dodds]

The question I have with Mark's response comes to the features. With the exception of the Meridian and the new Theta, most separate prepros don't have anywhere near the features of the top of the range receivers.


Very few even have 5.1 inputs let alone 7.1 inputs.

Very few have an anlog bypass.

Which ones have 24/192 Dacs.

Too few have adjustable crossovers.

How many have EX/ES or whatever you want to call it.

And so on.


The majority of the separate prepros out there have sigificantly fewer features than some of the better receivers, are less upgradeable and cost a whole lot more.


I have separates (Citation 7.0 & Technics 500) but I have to say that unless you are willing to spend Meridian and Theta money, today's receivers would make better prepros than most of the dedicated prepros out there.


Steve

 

[mdavis]

Quote:

The question I have with Mark's response comes to the features. With the exception of the Meridian and the new Theta, most separate prepros don't have anywhere near the features of the top of the range receivers.

I have to disagree Steve. See below.


Quote:

Very few even have 5.1 inputs let alone 7.1 inputs.

My Lexicon DC-1 has a very sophisicated 7.1 algorithm -- among the best there is. It can also extract 7.1 from 5.1 and 2.0 sources and does an exceptional job. Lexicon is the undisputed kind of processing. Meridian has their version, which is also decent and Theta has their circle sound algorithm. None of the high-end receivers seem to apply algorithms as advanced as these. Maybe that will change in the future...


Quote:

Very few have an anlog bypass.

EAD, Theta, and Classe are examples. CAL?? Others will add this feature in the future.


Quote:

Which ones have 24/192 Dacs.

Theta, Meridian -- actually does upsampling, and the Lexicon MC-1 all have these DACs (or at least 24/96). Remember, the DAC is just one simple aspect of the D/A process -- the digital filter is a very significant aspect of the process and you cannot quantify the sound given this data...Case in point: My Lexicon DC-1 w/20 bit Crystal DACs sounds better than the Denon flagship receiver with 24/96 DACs (5700). In the end, regardless of the DACs you find in the top-of-the-line receivers, high-end preamps will sound better due to other factors.


Quote:

Too few have adjustable crossovers.

Bass management is one of the areas where separates significantly overpower receivers...Theta offers 1Hz increments + adjustable slopes + up to 4 subs + many other features; Meridian allows 1Hz increments with several subwoofer types (mono, LFE, etc) and various other details; EAD allows 1Hz increments; Lexicon allow you to choose 40,80,120,or none but also adds a special algorithm called Bass Enhance and many other advanced management features -- like the ability to set separate crossovers per speaker and the ability to set separate subwoofer levels per 20+ effect modes or the ability to alter the management mode based on effect type, etc. I don't know the specifics of Classe, Krell, Proceed, CAL, etc.

Quote:

How many have EX/ES or whatever you want to call it.

Actually, I didn't mention this, but since you brought it up -- I've had DD-EX support in the Lexicon DC-1 since last fall. That's right, this was the first preamp, to my knowledge, to support such functionality. And I know that it will support whatever comes next as well. Receivers are just hitting the steets with this functionality, almost 1 year later. Not impressive.


Quote:

The majority of the separate prepros out there have sigificantly fewer features than some of the better receivers, are less upgradeable and cost a whole lot more.

I disagree. The majority of the (high-end) separate prepros have more features, far better bass management, better audio specifications, are significantly more upgradable, and in the end offer superior sound for more money.


Which receiver is flash upgradable like the Meridian line of products?

Which receiver has a daughtercard architecture like the Meridian line?

Which receiver has a digital backbone like Lexicon?

Which receiver offers EPROM upgrades like my Lexicon?

Which offers continual upgradability like the Theta line of products?


High-end preamps are more software and hardware upgradable than receivers have been in the past...


Quote:

I have separates (Citation 7.0 & Technics 500) but I have to say that unless you are willing to spend Meridian and Theta money, today's receivers would make better prepros than most of the dedicated prepros out there.

I have no comment about the Citation; however, I wouldn't limit it to Theta and Meridian.


How about: Theta, Meridian, Lexicon, EAD, Krell, Proceed, CAL, Classe -- off the top of my head. Or, any of the high-end HT preamps...



Regards, Mark




------------------

--

Mark C. Davis

[email protected]

 

[Bob Sorel]

Mark, I agree with you totally about the flexibility of separates, as I already mentioned that further up in this thread. Like I said, if money were no object, I would have chosen the Lexicon MC-1/Earthquake Cinenova combo for about $10,000. The only place I have reservations is in the added VALUE of separates. Is the combo worth 4 or 5 TIMES the Yamaha RX-V1? If the combo cost $2500 or even $3000, I would have also bought them, but I just couldn't justify the extra expense (at $10,000) for the real world difference in sound quality. I listened to both the Lex/Eartquake combo side by side with the Yamaha RX-V1 through the exact same set of speakers and yes, there was a VERY minor difference in sound quality (I would challenge you to tell me which is which in a blind test) while listening to movies, and the difference was a little more pronounced on 2 channel music, but given budget limitations, I feel the extra money is better spent on speakers, as the differences in that category are much more evident. Of course, if I were filthy rich and money had absolutely no bounds, then all of this would go out the window and I would pamper myself with the very finest available at any cost http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Bob

 

[Walter]

High-end receivers these days may equal or be better than low-end and mid-level separates. I don't think the receivers will ever be able to even equal high-end separates. :spin:


------------------

Walt


[This message has been edited by Walter (edited June 28, 2000).]

 

[mdavis]

Bob: I'm with you on the law of diminishing returns. At some point, a lot of money is being spent for smaller amounts of change -- and the smart consumer is going to buy at the knee of the curve -- unless he/she is independently wealthy.


This reminds me of my current car situation -- I can buy a new E46 BMW M3 for $50k or a Porsche 911 for about $80k. Which is better? Possibly the Porsche (even if the BMW beat it pretty bad and was named the best handling car there is over $30k by Car and Driver)...Is the Porsche $30k+ better? I don't think so. BTW, does anyone know of a way that I can actually get one of these this year or early next year? Wait lists are ridiculous nation wide and allocation is going to be slim right after these new cars start production in Sept. (earliest). Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Quote:

Mark, I agree with you totally about the flexibility of separates, as I already mentioned that further up in this thread. Like I said, if money were no object, I would have chosen the Lexicon MC-1/Earthquake Cinenova combo for about $10,000. The only place I have reservations is in the added VALUE of separates. Is the combo worth 4 or 5 TIMES the Yamaha RX-V1? If the combo cost $2500 or even $3000, I would have also bought them, but I just couldn't justify the extra expense (at $10,000) for the real world difference in sound quality. I listened to both the Lex/Eartquake

How about used?


Used Lexicon DC-1 == $1800, roughly. ATI/Outlaw amplifier == $1200ish. Sunfire $2kish. Used Classe 6-ch == $2500 or so. Here are some better bang-for-your-buck choices.

Quote:

combo side by side with the Yamaha RX-V1 through the exact same set of speakers and yes, there was a VERY minor difference in sound quality (I would challenge you to tell me which is which in a blind test) while listening to movies, and the difference was a little more pronounced on 2

Tell the difference on my Aerial Acoustics 10Ts + SW-12 + CC3 + SR3? I think that would be pretty easy. The bass management issues alone would probably give it away...And I'd hope that one could hear the sound quality differences as well.


What speakers did you use? With a set of speakers that are not quite as revealing, I would suspect that it would get more difficult to hear the differences...Remember, the weakest link in the system is going to dictate the outcome -- improving area X while area Y is the weak link isn't going to help. What cables? What source??


Quote:

channel music, but given budget limitations, I feel the extra money is better spent on speakers, as the differences in that category are much more evident. Of course, if I were filthy rich and money had absolutely no bounds, then all of this would go out the window and I would pamper myself with the very finest available at any cost Bob

Again, I agree and recommend spending as much as possible on speakers -- this is always a good move IMO.


But, I'd recommend used separates over a new receiver for the bang-for-your-buck category.



In the end, you have to do whatever makes you happy.


Regards, Mark



------------------

--

Mark C. Davis

[email protected]





[This message has been edited by mdavis (edited June 28, 2000).]

 

[mdavis]

Walter: I agree, good point. --Mark


------------------

--

Mark C. Davis

[email protected]

 

[Nick Satullo]

I agree that separates will always, as a general matter, provide higher quality than anything all in one box. But I don't think it's the processing in the preamp that makes the difference: it's the amplifier.


When you think of how many things that a one-stop box has to do, it's no wonder that there just simply isn't the room or the capacity to provide the amplification that a separate amplifier does. And particularly with Home Theater, where we're talking about a multichannel amplifier.


If you want an example, take one of your high end receivers or integrated amplifiers, and just use its preamp section, connected to a mid-level amplifier, like a Rotel, or a Parasound, or others. You will hear a cleaner, stronger sound than you heard from the amplifier in the receiver or integrated amplifier.

 

[mdavis]

Nicholas:


I'm with you. I noted significant differences between several amplifiers that I auditioned in my home -- and many of them were high-end. I found the Aerial + Classe combination to be quite favorable.However, I also think the preamp sections are better on separates as well -- bass management alone can significantly change the overall outcome. Which is the bigger difference? I don't know.


Regards, Mark


------------------

Mark C. Davis

[email protected]



[This message has been edited by mdavis (edited June 28, 2000).]


[This message has been edited by mdavis (edited June 28, 2000).]

 

[rv]

Ok thought I'd jump in here again....let's take the higher end out of this equation. Aerial Acoustics are demanding speakers, capable of exception resoltuion. Receivers need not apply here. I think that is a given. I don't think you'll find people that are looking for Theta/Meridian, etc. even thinking about receivers.


The general opinion I'm really trying to discern, is what level of speaker does it take to end the "reciver route". Clearly they've come along way, but how just how far is the measurement I'm aiming for.

 

[mdavis]

Quote:

Ok thought I'd jump in here again....let's take the higher end out of this equation. Aerial Acoustics are demanding speakers, capable of exception resoltuion. Receivers need not apply here. I think that is a given. I don't think you'll find people that are looking for Theta/Meridian, etc. even thinking about receivers. The general opinion I'm really trying to discern, is what level of speaker does it take to end the "reciver route". Clearly they've come along way, but how just how far is the measurement I'm aiming for.

RV:


That's a difficult question that is likely to bring on heated debate. I'd say speakers as inexpensive as Maggie 1.6QR ($1500/pair) could greatly benefit from separates, but this is speculation since I haven't tried them with a high-end receiver and a set of separates.


I'm sure someone could spend years trying to come to a conclusion here (experimentally) -- and much of this could be subjective.


Regards, Mark





------------------

--

Mark C. Davis

[email protected]

 

[Nathan Ivey]

By the way.........


Theta has daughter board modularity just like Meridian 861!


THD on Casa Nova .002


For the price I purchased my Theta I will come out well ahead in the long run. Not to mention being able tooo Ignore this EX crap.

Hope DVDA and SACD don't wind up being flops (bet they do) I think DTS audio still has something left to offer. Forget about MLP it wont last.


Besides I don't need EX in an aptmt http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

[ross]

Well you won't hear any differences due to the amps. No one can, although many people are fooled by high end dealers. Your choice in speakers and their careful placement in your room is the key to a great (accurate) sounding system.

If you buy a moderately priced receiver, you can just throw it out and buy a new one when the next big thing comes along. People who buy very expensive equipment always talk about upgradeablility, but it's usually

been a promise not kept. Even when kept they charge the upgrades for

expensive equipment always cost more than they are worth. Buy simple well made stuff like Adcom or Sony and throw it out when it gets obsolete or give it to charity or to poor relatives. Invest the money you saved by not buying krell, or levinson in the S&P 500 and retire at 55. Or buy the high end stuff, get "free" coffee at the "dealer" and retire at 65.

Rgrds-Ross Salinger