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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been searching for a while now looking for a budget oriented option to build for mains and a center. I have been looking for some higher sensitivity speakers without blowing the bank. I would like to stay around $500 start to finish for mains and center. I originally had my mind set on some line arrays but was quickly talked out of it since a decent setup would be well over my budget. So i then looked at the econowaves. Im thinking these may be a good option for me and are well within the budget.


I would use these drivers http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-320 and http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=264-270 since there is an optimized crossover for this setup already.


I havent seen to much negative feedback on them other than in the upper FR some dialouge may be harsh? Specifically the S's. I would like some feedback from anyone who has built them and what they could compare to. The only horn tweeter mains i have ever heard is the Klipsch and i love their sound.


One other question i have about the econowave's is how sensitive are they to boundry's around them? Meaning if i used one as a center channel could it be built into a TV stand with equipment racks on both sides of it? Kind of like this horrible sketchup lol.



Im just looking for the biggest and best sound possible for my money(arent we all). If there's any better options out there for my money i would appreciate any suggestions. I have eliminated the TriTrix, Zaph aluminum MTM, and a few other designs since im not so sure theyll be able to go much louder than my current speakers before distortion creeps in and takes over.
 

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Talked out of the line array? I though you were still onboard with them, Reece
. At least with the hybid/econowave varient, which wouldn't have any horizontal placement issues. They would still fit you budget methinks for LCR.


I can't offer much advice about the boundary loading of the econos, but I can say you should also check out the Indignia and Statement speaker designs. The Indignias should be well within your budget and beat the snot out of a lot of speakers. The Statements may push the budget a bit for LCR, iirc, but they knock out $8k speakers, or so I'm told.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 /forum/post/18176202


Talked out of the line array? I though you were still onboard with them, Reece
. At least with the hybid/econowave varient, which wouldn't have any horizontal placement issues. They would still fit you budget methinks for LCR.


I can't offer much advice about the boundary loading of the econos, but I can say you should also check out the Indignia and Statement speaker designs. The Indignias should be well within your budget and beat the snot out of a lot of speakers. The Statements may push the budget a bit for LCR, iirc, but they knock out $8k speakers, or so I'm told.

I am on completely onboard! And that would be my first choice. But i havent heard or seen anything from Neo Dan in a few days. I am 100% clueless when it comes to speaker design, x-overs, etc so i can not make anything happy on my own with his idea... . I would have to follow his instructions/plans for the enclosure and x-over to even be able to get them to work
. I have thought about the mini statements but the mains alone would run me $600 and then i think another $350 for the center. As far as the Indignia's its first time ive heard a word about them. Ill have to see what i can dig up. Although I am ready to make a purchase and start making saw dust. I am not in such a hurry that im not going to explore any more viable options before taking the plunge. Thankyou for your response its greatly appreciated.
 

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Karma Indignia is here:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=160535



Re: EconoWave:


We worked up the crossover for the "Standard" EconoWave with DC300 here:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=215536


Parts list shows $252.10 the pair w/o cabs, if my math is correct. Add $20 if you want PC boards.



We're going back for another look at DC250 next, after finishing up with both "Deluxe" variants using KappaLite 3012 HO and LF and the QSC waveguide with DE250, which follows in that Tech Talk thread.


Eighty-seven DIYers from all over the world have now registered their builds, and there's well over 100 projects documented in the main AK thread to date:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939


Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18175928


One other question i have about the econowave's is how sensitive are they to boundry's around them? Meaning if i used one as a center channel could it be built into a TV stand with equipment racks on both sides of it?

They incorporate constant-directivity waveguides, 90° horizontal by 50° vertical, so the HF doesn't much give a whit about boundaries. The LF follows familiar rules; nothing is different there. We've taken care to match the LF and HF dispersions in the crossover transition region. You'll find the forward axis tilt and forward lobe height measurements in both threads.
 

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Zilch,

Congrats on getting the QSC based EWave ironed out

Have you had a look at the measurements Brandon took of the Celestion CDX1-1425?
http://sites.google.com/site/driverv...tion-cdx1-1425


To me it looks like a bang for the buck winner. The breakup is high enough to not be nearly as annoying as the D220Ti. However it's not as clean as the BMS but for the money it's a tough one to beat.


D220Ti ~$40



Celestion CDX1-1425 ~$61



BMS 4550 ~$148
 

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i'd kill your center channel and put that money into your mains. that way you may be able to afford something like 4pi's.


alternatively, get a couple 2206 drivers and plop them in 1 cubic foot enclosures tuned to 50hz. -3db at 80hz combined with a 2nd order highpass at 80 will give you -6db at 80hz...right on thx spec.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18175928


Meaning if i used one as a center channel could it be built into a TV stand with equipment racks on both sides of it? Kind of like this horrible sketchup lol.

Vertical directivity is quite narrow, so you'd at least need to build an angled baffle tilted up to get them more on axis at the listening position.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18175928


I have been searching for a while now looking for a budget oriented option to build for mains and a center. I have been looking for some higher sensitivity speakers without blowing the bank. I would like to stay around $500 start to finish for mains and center. I originally had my mind set on some line arrays but was quickly talked out of it since a decent setup would be well over my budget. So i then looked at the econowaves. Im thinking these may be a good option for me and are well within the budget.


I would use these drivers http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-320 and http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...number=264-270 since there is an optimized crossover for this setup already.

Looks like an 87 dB speaker to me. Is that what you had in mind?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/18176554


i'd kill your center channel and put that money into your mains. that way you may be able to afford something like 4pi's.


alternatively, get a couple 2206 drivers and plop them in 1 cubic foot enclosures tuned to 50hz. -3db at 80hz combined with a 2nd order highpass at 80 will give you -6db at 80hz...right on thx spec.

I have been playing with the phantom center with my current speakers. I like it sometimes and other times i prefer the center channel. I know alot of people prefer no center channel. The thing i dont like is it's only good for me in the sweet spot. If i move a few seats left or right its a no go. Would the larger dispersion of the econowaves or other speaker help this issue? Also what are those 4pi's, i think i may have seen them before.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl /forum/post/18177067


Looks like an 87 dB speaker to me. Is that what you had in mind?

Well no an 87db speaker is not what i had in mind since my mains now are 89db rated. This whole speaker thing is new to me. So i may be missing a few key things here. But this is my over all goal. I listen at -10db from reference right now without too much audible distortion theres still some there though. But any higher and it just become's a distortion fest. I am looking for a speaker that can easily do -10db from reference and maybe get a bit louder before any audible distortion sets in. I would love to listen at higher volume level's if my setup permitted. But as it stands im barely getting by at -10db. Also i dont plan on bi-amping or going seperate amplifiers for the speakers. I plan on using just my receiver which is rated at 105w x 7 channel's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Maybe i should add my room is 6900cuft, with just the listening area squared off at 5000cuft. So it's going to take a decent speaker to reach my goal i believe.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan /forum/post/18176536


Zilch,

Congrats on getting the QSC based EWave ironed out.


Have you had a look at the measurements Brandon took of the Celestion CDX1-1425?

I did see those, yes. Though I've never made the detemination, it appears to add additional depth to the QSC waveguide and displace the acoustic center even further back. Not a problem if we are running active with delay, but a tough nut passive, as it's essential to get the forward lobe steered to the desired axis. I believe everyone involved would agree that we rather stepped in it achieving this with a stupidly simple passive crossover and the DE250 with rear-mounted KappaLite.


It's theorized that D220Ti makes its extended VHF via resonances of it's "snowflake" embossed diaphragm; whether that's objectionable or not is a matter of preference and application. Certainly, there has been a desire for higher quality drivers among experienced EconoWave builders, which drove our work with DE250 and the QSC waveguide. Another "premium" combination that we know works well is BMS 4555 mated with any of the wide array of available 1.5" JBL PT waveguides; those aren't $10 apiece, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18177958


I have been playing with the phantom center with my current speakers. I like it sometimes and other times i prefer the center channel. I know alot of people prefer no center channel. The thing i dont like is it's only good for me in the sweet spot. If i move a few seats left or right its a no go. Would the larger dispersion of the econowaves or other speaker help this issue?

Yes, that's what constant directivity is about. See the horizontal polars I measured and posted in the Tech Talk thread. Even a hack like me can easily confirm they work "as advertised."

Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18177958


Also what are those 4pi's, i think i may have seen them before.

Don't know why everyone is focused on 4pi, (I have a suspicion, tho,) but 3pi is the more appropriate equivalent, by my view. See Wayne Parham's Pi-Speakers website.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/18176554


Alternatively, get a couple 2206 drivers and plop them in 1 cubic foot enclosures tuned to 50hz. -3db at 80hz combined with a 2nd order highpass at 80 will give you -6db at 80hz...right on thx spec.

As you know, my initial work with QSC was using 2206H. I should probably get back to that combo now that I have a better handle on all of this, but I'm just one person with limited resources, whereas there is an army of DIYers out there now working with these concepts. We're just here as "facilitators...."
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks, Zilch. I checked out those Pi speakers. If $320 for 3pi and $380 for 4pi is the price per speaker and not a set, i think im better off doing it myself and not purchasing a kit. What SPL are the econowaves achieving? Im sure they would fit the bill and if not it wont be a huge loss in $$. How much noticeable performance is to be gained by using a higher quality mid woofer? Has anyone ever built a version with 2 12" mid woofer's? May be asking ridiculous questions but im genuinely curious lol.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18178014


Maybe i should add my room is 6900cuft, with just the listening area squared off at 5000cuft. So it's going to take a decent speaker to reach my goal i believe.

Looks like you will need about a 98 dB speaker, maybe more. I'm not sure if that's doable on your budget.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18178309


What SPL are the econowaves achieving? Im sure they would fit the bill and if not it wont be a huge loss in $$. How much noticeable performance is to be gained by using a higher quality mid woofer?

If 115 dB SPL peak is the spec, KappaLite will certainly get there, and there's a host of alternative less-expensive, high-efficiency (read "Pro") woofers that will, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18178309


Has anyone ever built a version with 2 12" mid woofer's? May be asking ridiculous questions but im genuinely curious lol.

That doesn't gain anything except in an MTM configuration; I'm not a fan of that alignment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 /forum/post/18176746


Vertical directivity is quite narrow, so you'd at least need to build an angled baffle tilted up to get them more on axis at the listening position.

For an under-the-screen center channel, I'd likely recommend that approach, yes....
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl /forum/post/18178323


Looks like you will need about a 98 dB speaker, maybe more. I'm not sure if that's doable on your budget.

I was hoping for maybe around a 95db speaker
. I guess all i can do is build what i can on my meager budget and go from there. Surely anything i build should be better than my current speakers. I just dont want to build your standard MTM design that might not be much of an upgrade if this makes sense.


Neo Dan, have you made any progress on your line array? Or was it just a good theory?


Zilch what driver would you reccomend using with keeping budget in mind. I know the kapplite's are great but theyre what $170 each? How about something in the $75-$100 range?
 

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" Originally Posted by reecew View Post

I have been playing with the phantom center with my current speakers. I like it sometimes and other times i prefer the center channel. I know alot of people prefer no center channel. The thing i dont like is it's only good for me in the sweet spot. If i move a few seats left or right its a no go. Would the larger dispersion of the econowaves or other speaker help this issue?"


"Yes, that's what constant directivity is about. See the horizontal polars I measured and posted in the Tech Talk thread. Even a hack like me can easily confirm they work "as advertised.""


Note that you have to toe in the speakers for this to work.


If the speakers are pointed straight ahead, the directivity will make it worse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/18178550


" Originally Posted by reecew View Post

I have been playing with the phantom center with my current speakers. I like it sometimes and other times i prefer the center channel. I know alot of people prefer no center channel. The thing i dont like is it's only good for me in the sweet spot. If i move a few seats left or right its a no go. Would the larger dispersion of the econowaves or other speaker help this issue?"


"Yes, that's what constant directivity is about. See the horizontal polars I measured and posted in the Tech Talk thread. Even a hack like me can easily confirm they work "as advertised.""


Note that you have to toe in the speakers for this to work.


If the speakers are pointed straight ahead, the directivity will make it worse.

Yes ive got mine toed in now. Ive been playing with the angle and still no success with my current speakers. I know the econowaves get better sound dispersion so it should be easier to get a more uniform sound across the entire LP than my current speakers are offering.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew /forum/post/18178539


Zilch what driver would you reccomend using with keeping budget in mind. I know the kapplite's are great but theyre what $170 each? How about something in the $75-$100 range?

As of now, KappaLite and 2206H are the only higher-efficienty woofers with which I've worked.


Note that 10" woofers are a good match, as well. The QSC kinda dwarfs them, but not the standard eWaveguide so much....
 
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