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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently have a PS3 that I use as a blu-ray/DVD player. I use the HDMI output for video and audio. Will there be any difference in sound quality between a PS3 and a player like the Oppo BDP-83 or Oppo BDP-80 if audio is bitstreamed (including HD audio like True HD and Master audio) to an Integra DHC 40.1 or 80.1 pre-amp?


I have read here that jitter can have an effect on the sound quality. Also it appears that jitter is not an issue if you bitstream. Why is this so?


Ignoring video, is there anything in the BDP-83 or BDP-80 that will make it a better performer in terms of audio quality while bitstreaming audio compared to the PS3?


Does coax SPDIF have lower jitter than HDMI audio for DD and DTS sources? Again why would this even matter if bitstreaming circumvents the jitter issue?


Does an Integra DHC 80.1 have built in dejitter circuits like the legendary Lexicon MC-1s?

Usually when talk about bitstreaming vs decoding in player, or jitter etc comes up, it turns into a subjective war at time. Please avoid any subjective discussions. I am looking for a good solid technical explanation for these questions. Would appreciate your participation if you have any insight.

Thanks,

-Jai
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Many views and no response yet, so I thought I will help motivate this with whatever I found.

This interesting thread in the $20K+ forum that talks about How high is the jitter level on HDMI vs S/PDIF on a High-End Processor?

In it there is an interesting link that talks about why jitter is a non-issue for bitstreamed sources. However, later discussions in the thread, make the claims inconclusive.

A facinating read that would almost make you want to not use HD audio streams like DolbyTrueHD and DTS HD Master audio because of HDMI and rather revert back to SPDIF.

It also alludes to the Classe SSP-800 processor uniqueness.

BTW, the integra DHC 80.1 that I am considering has a PLL based jitter reduction compared to the lower end DHC 40.1 that I now have which has something called the Clean Jitter circuit?

There is also the motivation to entirely ditch HDMI and use the analog outputs. But then there is an unwanted A-D and D-A conversion needed if you want to use room correction like Audyssey in these units.

Any of you have any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Jai
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/18234513


Ignoring video, is there anything in the BDP-83 or BDP-80 that will make it a better performer in terms of audio quality while bitstreaming audio compared to the PS3?

If you're talking about Blu-ray (like you are in the first line) then it matters whether you've got a PS3 'fat' or Slim. The fat ones don't bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio but instead convert it to high-res multichannel PCM. The Slim ones do stream these formats.


For DVD-Video there is no difference I'm aware of but the Oppos support DVD-Audio.


For SACD lastly (which you didn't mention in your post but you did in the topic title), the Oppos offer a choice of DSD or PCM while the PS3 doesn't. If yours is SACD-compatible it will only output high-res 5.1 PCM via HDMI.


See the PS3 SACD FAQ .
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by T7T /forum/post/18242891


If you're talking about Blu-ray (like you are in the first line) then it matters whether you've got a PS3 'fat' or Slim. The fat ones don't bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio but instead convert it to high-res multichannel PCM. The Slim ones do stream these formats.


For DVD-Video there is no difference I'm aware of but the Oppos support DVD-Audio.


For SACD lastly (which you didn't mention in your post but you did in the topic title), the Oppos offer a choice of DSD or PCM while the PS3 doesn't. If yours is SACD-compatible it will only output high-res 5.1 PCM via HDMI.


See the PS3 SACD FAQ .

T7T,

Thanks for the response. I was specific in my post about bitstreamed HD audio formats, thereby implying PS3 slim and the slims are not capable of SACD playback. I asked oppo these questions off-line


1. Is there anything in the design that would minimize the effect of jitter in the audio passed over HDMI as compared to the PS3 while streaming DD/DTS/DSD and HD audio formats True HD and Master audio? In other words, will it offer any improvement in sound quality as compared to the PS3? Any difference between the 83, SE and 80 in this regard?


2. Does the SPDIF output have lower jitter than HDMI output for audio? This would help me decide which to choose SPDIF or HDMI for DD/DTS sources?


3. I want the cleanest possible sound for TrueHD and Master audio sources. Is it better to use the HDMI output or the 7.1 analog outputs? You have put a lot of effort in getting us a jitter free 7.1 analog output with the sabre dacs in the SE. But would this even matter if this is converted to digital again within an Integra 80.1? The digital conversion is needed for Audyssey Pro and Audyssey DSX listening modes since I currently have Audyssey wide front channels.

If converted to digital again, wouldn't jitter within the integra defeat the purpose? The integra 80.1 (their higher end) has a PLL jitter reduction according to their site. My current integra 40.1 has something called Clean jitter circuit (I don't know what this means). These would apply only to HDMI, I guess, or would it apply to the analog input from 7.1 also that gets converted to digital?




and this was their response...



1. There should be no difference in performance when using the player to pass audio over HDMI. HDMI itself is a very jittery interface, and there is no real way to improve on its performance. The player should be identical to the PS3, and all three of our models will behave exactly the same when transmitting data through the digital interfaces.


2. You will likely always want to use HDMI. The jitter coefficient for the transmissions should be negligible.


3. You should always use HDMI if available. Your receiver does all audio processing in the digital domain. You will not want to use analog.
 

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Ok, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/18260980


I was specific in my post about bitstreamed HD audio formats, thereby implying PS3 slim and the slims are not capable of SACD playback.

That's right, although they are capable of playing DSD Disc format. Sadly, Sony did not have DSD streaming incorporated in the new HDMI chips and consequently DSD still gets converted to (high-res) PCM.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/18234513


I currently have a PS3 that I use as a blu-ray/DVD player. I use the HDMI output for video and audio. Will there be any difference in sound quality between a PS3 and a player like the Oppo BDP-83 or Oppo BDP-80 if audio is bitstreamed (including HD audio like True HD and Master audio) to an Integra DHC 40.1 or 80.1 pre-amp?


I have read here that jitter can have an effect on the sound quality. Also it appears that jitter is not an issue if you bitstream. Why is this so?


Ignoring video, is there anything in the BDP-83 or BDP-80 that will make it a better performer in terms of audio quality while bitstreaming audio compared to the PS3?


Does coax SPDIF have lower jitter than HDMI audio for DD and DTS sources? Again why would this even matter if bitstreaming circumvents the jitter issue?


Does an Integra DHC 80.1 have built in dejitter circuits like the legendary Lexicon MC-1s?

Usually when talk about bitstreaming vs decoding in player, or jitter etc comes up, it turns into a subjective war at time. Please avoid any subjective discussions. I am looking for a good solid technical explanation for these questions. Would appreciate your participation if you have any insight.

Thanks,

-Jai
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8354
 

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Although I only have a PS3 for SACD playback, I just went crazy ordering about 8 discs from amazon. Although it does not bitstream like the oppo, it's still a treat for me. Until I sold it last year, my only player was the sony 400disc dvd player with 6 analog outs.


Some of these discs are selling $200-$400! Crazy. I see one of the Billy Joel discs I picked up at best buy aboutt 5 years ago is listed at $150. My "Hotel California" DVD-A I own is listed at $80.


Oh well, most of the discs I bought were between $6 and $20.

Not many people just sit back, close their eyes and actively listen. It's a listen-while-you-run world full of ipods and over-compressed mp3's. Sad that some think there is nothing better, but I guess most don't care.


Enough of my late-night ramblings!

Cheers!

ej
 

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I am coming to regret it any time I step into one these threads (always get blasted). My opinions:


Q1. Will there be any difference in sound quality between a PS3 and a player like the Oppo BDP-83 or Oppo BDP-80 if audio is bitstreamed...?


A1: Probably not anything you could hear. The Oppo may have better processing, error correction etc. but that has nothing to do with the link itself. BUT, that better processing could lead to better audio quality.


Q2: Ignoring video, is there anything in the BDP-83 or BDP-80 that will make it a better performer in terms of audio quality while bitstreaming audio compared to the PS3?


A2: Same as A1.


Q3: Does coax SPDIF have lower jitter than HDMI audio for DD and DTS sources?


A3: The link doesn't care the source, and yes SPDIF has lower jitter for almost every player available now. It has to do with the way the circuits are implemented and to some extent the way the HDMI standard was defined (a video-centric standard). However, there's a huge debate about whether or not you'd be able to hear any difference. In your case, I suspect not. The levels of jitter quoted would be inaudible except to very well-trained ears and appropriate source material.


Q4: Again why would this even matter if bitstreaming circumvents the jitter issue?


A4: There's the rub - it doesn't circumvent it. Most players, and AVRs, derive the final output DACs' clock from the data stream ("bitstream" PCM or HDMI) via a CDR -- clock and data recovery -- circuit. That circuit captures and "splits" the clock from the data signal. Jitter on the incoming data stream is thus passed along to the audio output via the recovered DAC clock. The DAC gets clocked by "jittery" time samples, and it has no way of telling if the signal or clock moved, it just converts what it gets when it is told and passes it out. Again, at the levels of jitter specified, there's a huge debate as to its audibility.


I don't know anything about the Integra unit, sorry.


Off topic re. the disc craze: I gave away (gave) an extra copy of an LP I had laying around unopened to a friend many years ago. A few years letter, the person to whom I gave it said he'd sold it (still unopened) for nearly $600 on eBay. Didn't even offer me a cut, the swine.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 /forum/post/18342288


I am coming to regret it any time I step into one these threads (always get blasted).

Nah. You just had been unfortunate enough to step in very controversial topics in my opinion.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 /forum/post/18234513


I currently have a PS3 that I use as a blu-ray/DVD player. I use the HDMI output for video and audio. Will there be any difference in sound quality between a PS3 and a player like the Oppo BDP-83 or Oppo BDP-80 if audio is bitstreamed (including HD audio like True HD and Master audio) to an Integra DHC 40.1 or 80.1 pre-amp?


I have read here that jitter can have an effect on the sound quality. Also it appears that jitter is not an issue if you bitstream. Why is this so?


Ignoring video, is there anything in the BDP-83 or BDP-80 that will make it a better performer in terms of audio quality while bitstreaming audio compared to the PS3?


Does coax SPDIF have lower jitter than HDMI audio for DD and DTS sources? Again why would this even matter if bitstreaming circumvents the jitter issue?


Does an Integra DHC 80.1 have built in dejitter circuits like the legendary Lexicon MC-1s?

Usually when talk about bitstreaming vs decoding in player, or jitter etc comes up, it turns into a subjective war at time. Please avoid any subjective discussions. I am looking for a good solid technical explanation for these questions. Would appreciate your participation if you have any insight.

Thanks,

-Jai

I think jitter is real, abeit, I don't take the, sky is falling approach made by some who think jitter is the devil.. You don't hear jitter IMO.. I used a Benchmark DAC which claims to be jitter free.. Very arguable.. I used my Sony 777es as a transport.. It also had a headphone jack.. When using the DAC1 the sound was cleaner, less congested, & less muddy.. But to my surprise, the difference wasn't as notable as I thought it would be.. I was expecting a great improvement, but was just noticeable, & I suspect many wouldn't think the improvement would warrant 995.00, which the DAC1 cost.. Just my experience with 'jitter.'


IMO, if you are buying the oppo for a upgrade in audio with bitstream, you might want to think twice.. I own the PS3 & oppo83SE.. I will do some bitstream comparison.. The SABRE32 dacs are only implemented in the analog stage, so it would be a fair fight...
 
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