[pittdave]

ok I need a new dvd player because I just got the WinTV PVR and i can start making VCD's... My problem is my RCA player rc5125p will not take cd-r or rw..

I have heard nothing but wonderful comments about the Apex ad1500 because it plays them all..

but it only has a coaxial digital audio out.. where my rca is optical..

is there a real difference in the out put for DD or DTS and so on..

or is it worth moving up to a model that keeps optical capibility

 

[bluedevils]

If your external DAC has both coax and optical inputs, then you shouldn't notice any difference. Some may even argue that coax is better.

 

[jfrano]

I just switched my optical connectors to Coax tonight. I defiantly hear more depth. The bass seems tighter. Also a broader sound, in general. I have Dynaudio Contours 3.3 up front, so it may allow me to hear more detail than most or I could just have rocks in my head(hehe). Very happy with the change.

 

[bluedevils]

There should be no difference, unless your fibre is loosing alot of information.

 

[Rags]

I spoke to Mel Schilling at Camelot Technologies about this debate 4 months ago. At the time, I was using his Camelot Dragon 5.1 de-jitter device. I asked whether I should hook up an optical cable to my DVD player or to my DSS receiver - I had to make a choice with the Dragon. He said stick with Coax on the DVD player.


Mel said the differences were measurable and stunning. Coax is the clear winner. I suspect this is maybe only noticable in very highend gear. I seem to recall that it was a bandwidth issue.

 

[jfrano]

I didn't get too much time to play familiar tunes. But on the ones I did play..."Stunning" is the correct adjective I would also use.


PS I'm going to fire off an email to DYNAUDIO...See what they think, also.

 

[Aaron H]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE IN SOUND QUALITY BETWEEN OPTICAL AND COAXIAL. Both carry what is called S/PDIF audio and both carry them at the same bitrate and everything. What you end up hearing is identical with each format.

 

[falkagin]

Ok, I'm relatively new to the whole coax and digital thing. Until I recently updated to the Onkyo I used the analog 5.1 inputs on the AIWA. When I got the Onkyo I also purchased a monster cable optical link for the audio and have used it ever since. I once did switch the audio input on the receiver to the L/R inputs from the DVD (which, of course made the receiver switch to Pro Logic) and the difference was considerable but not in favor of it. So, my question is, "Do I need a special coax digital cable or do I just use a regular cable to hook up the digital coax output on the DVD to test the difference?"

 

[Rice Rocket]

falkagin: Yes--it makes a difference as to which coax cable you use for digital. Most important to find cables with RCA connectors that are 75 Ohms. Order one from a source that has a money back guarantee like a sponser of this forum: bettercables.com


Experiment in your setup. If you hear a difference, great! If not, then you just saved yourself some money.


P.S. This has been debated to death--please do a search. Suffice to say that this statement is flat out inaccurate: "There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE IN SOUND QUALITY BETWEEN OPTICAL AND COAXIAL."

 

[Aaron H]

No, any digital coaxial cable will work. And there is absolutely no difference between optical and coaxial. Any network engineer or anybody at all (like studio people) who work with digital information all the time will tell you the same thing. With digital, it either works or it doesn't. If it works it sounds as great as the source. If it doesn't then you don't her anything, or you hear something so badly messed up (ie it's cutting out) that you can't understand it. There's no middle ground. The only reason "audiophile" cables are made in the first place (even for analog) is to rip people off. They're not gonna stop ripping you off just because you switch to digital. (That's not to say cable quality doesn't affect analog - it does - a lot -, but the so called "audiophile" cables like MONSTER are overpriced and usually not all that good. You can make better RCA interconnects by buying RELATIVELY (ie fairly expensive for what it is) coaxial cable and putting RCA connectors on it. But with digital either it works or it doesn't. So use the cheapest thing that works. If you claim to hear a difference with pricier cable, then that's what's known as a placebo effect.

 

[bitkahuna]

Aaron - put on your flameproof underwear - you're about to get roasted.


I tend to agree with you ALTHOUGH, I could swear I heard the difference between one DVD player and another both connected digitally to the same receiver, so you'd think "hey, it's the same bits, how can it sound different?" Your new enemies say that because it's NOT like a network stream where data is buffered etc., but is played instead in REAL TIME off the incoming data, so if the timing is messed up in any way, you'll hear the difference.


Variations in timing are called 'jitter' and there's TONS of info about it on the net... this was all news to me a week ago. I bear the burn marks from being flamed about it on Home Theater Forum.

 

[bryan_chow]

I prefer coax but that's because optical seems rather fragile (can't bend them).


I also tend to agree with those who say there should be no difference (apart from potential jitter or clock issues) . It's a digital link. I can even use it to send a computer file instead of audio, and it will be identical when it arrives.


Bryan

 

[gabe nell]

I absolutely refuse to believe that switching from optical to coax produced "stunning" results.


Saying that the "bass sounds tighter" is pretty absurd since jitter is orders of magnitude more likely to affect higher frequencies.


Jitter-induced errors in test environments can cause small errors... ie given a test tone, non-test-frequencies should be silent, or around -120dB... induce some jitter, and find that some frequencies move from -120dB to -95dB... I challenge you to hear that.


Anyway my feeling is that you either have supermanlike hearing, bizarre equipment, or are simply hearing things that are not there because you thought a priori there should be a difference.

 

[Rags]

Mel, who I quote above, makes de-jitter devices for a living. His company also makes the Camelot Roundtable DVD player. He has the technical credentials and experience to know about which he speaks.


One can argue ad nauseam about the signal but remember there are other issues besides the carrier wire; issues like types of terminators and associated D/A circuitry. Jitter is noticeable, hence the huge investment in highend design to eliminate it. The issue is way too complex for most of us to get into a technical argument. All I can say is I'll put my money on the expertise at Camelot and not on hearsay.

 

[bitkahuna]

Rags wrote:

Quote:

All I can say is I'll put my money on the expertise at Camelot and not on heresy.

Is that HERESY or HEARSAY? Big difference. Especially to the Spanish inquisitors.


High end manufacturers stake their reputation on being able to eliminate as much MACHINE MEASURABLE noise/distortion/etc. from their gear as possible.


And there will always be customers who wish to pay WHATEVER IT TAKES for the comfort of knowing their signal is as good as it can be.


However, for most of us a) we can't afford that, and b) probably think the 'diminshing returns' issue hits pretty quick.


My own HT isn't bad, but I know my room is not optimal for one thing and so I'm not about to spend another $10K or whatever to make the HT '5%' or some other amount better.


Before I worry too much about jitter, I should worry about speakers, for example.


While jitter may be technically measurable, I'm not sure it makes any HUMAN measurable difference for most humans and have seen NO scientific evidence that it must make a difference. The evidence is either very technical with no correlation as to whether anyone would be able to hear/see differences, or it's subjective with an audiophile saying you can hear/see the difference.

 

[bryan_chow]

Quote:

Originally posted by bitkahuna High end manufacturers stake their reputation on being able to eliminate as much MACHINE MEASURABLE noise/distortion/etc. from their gear as possible.

Unfortunately that's not quite right!


The higher end you go the LESS machine measurable their claims become. I subscribe to Stereophile and the amount of BS in every issue is astounding. Things about electrons and quantum effects, etc. At the high end you really have to separate the legitimate claims from the snake oil.


Bryan

 

[Nick Satullo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rags Mel, who I quote above, makes de-jitter devices for a living. His company also makes the Camelot Roundtable DVD player. He has the technical credentials and experience to know about which he speaks.

But just consider what you've written. You're reposing trust in Mel's comments, despite the fact that he stands to profit by emphasizing the harmful effects of jitter. So certainly he's got an ax to grind. But that doesn't mean he's not correct, either.


While I generally buy into the idea that coaxial is the more preferred cable, and my system shows it, I must admit I have never heard anything like a "stunning" or "dramatic" difference when I have a/b'd the two. In fact I can't say that I've ever even heard a difference. Coaxial is, however, quite plainly the more secure connection.


Having been on the outskirts of these cable discussions in the past, I will make a prediction: This one will go nowhere. It will be just like the last one, and the one before that, and before that . . .


Nick

 

[bryan_chow]

I don't believe anyone can hear a "stunning" difference between coax and optical either. If they do, it's almost certainly the placebo effect.


Try this (blind test): have someone switch the cables while you listen with your eyes closed. Do that 10 times, and see if you can correctly figure out which ones were coax and which were optical.


Bryan

 

[bjorg]

We are talking about an Apex AD1500 dvd player. Does anyone really care if there is a difference between coax and optical on an Apex? I don't think so.


The bottom line is: for all practical purposes in the context of the Apex DVD player, coax and optical cables are identical.


- Bjorg

 

[Aaron H]

Another thing you must remember is DVDs are usually Dolby Digital or DTS. Because that is a completely error-corrected, compressed stream, I guarantee jitter makes no difference. Either you get a lock or you don't. With PCM (like satellite TV) there may be some difference in jitter, but the effect on the audio is so tiny that you'd have to have both top of the line equipment and superman hearing to notice it at all.