AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,687 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I don't get side tracked from another thread, I'm going to start this one.


Having monster subs is great. It's just as important that the sound that is handed over to the next driver in line is able to be reproduced with the same intensity. This is what happened when my subs were XO to a set of mini monitors.There was something missing.The monitors only had 6.5" woofers (one) and they were not able to translate the same amount of intensity that the subs were able to at the LP around 85db-90db of higher when showing off
.


Balance is everything. Mark Seaton's monitors he used in Art's install have two 12" drivers per main. "Now thats what I'm talking about".


Cheers KG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
956 Posts
I'm warming up to Basspig's setup ideas.


He uses a Behringer DCX2496 crossover and splits his signal in 3. Dividing subbass and midbass to appropriate designed speakers. Only his version is like the MBM on steroids!


I think this could be effectively implemented on a smaller scale. (Think high inductance monster drivers for subbass, slamming pro driver for upper-midbass). Eventually you are creating a DIY full range speaker. This active crossover is chuck full of features for tweaking this often overlooked handoff to the next driver.


Just some crazy thoughts....


Dr V
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,687 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Not crazy at all.Each stage hand off to the next.If the next stage in line is not capable then you now have a weak link. This is where most of the upgrades come from.


Like i said in the OP my room is small. The DIY monitors are a bit shy on sensitivity, thats probably why I had to upgrade amps. It still requires alot of power and displacement to conquer most movies.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,980 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran /forum/post/0


So I don't get side tracked from another thread, I'm going to start this one.


Having monster subs is great. It's just as important that the sound that is handed over to the next driver in line is able to be reproduced with the same intensity. This is what happened when my subs were XO to a set of mini monitors.There was something missing.The monitors only had 6.5" woofers (one) and they were not able to translate the same amount of intensity that the subs were able to at the LP around 85db-90db of higher when showing off
.


Balance is everything. Mark Seaton's monitors he used in Art's install have two 12" drivers per main. "Now thats what I'm talking about".


Cheers KG

Hi kg',


While I certainly wasn't the first one to identify this problem, I've been beating it into people's minds for a while, and it's great to see it sinking in and more people starting to make the same recommendations.


My own adventures into full range speakers came from frustration with the terrible lack of options for dedicated theaters. Finding speakers better optimized to drive a large room, or even a moderate size HT to desired clean peak/dynamic levels is not easy. If you then want to find something where the designer actually paid attention to and understood directivity your choices narrow even further, and many of those remaining are very expensive. Such products don't need to cost rediculous amounts of money, they just need to be designed to actually solve the problem/need. I've continued to experiment and investigate some more since doing the prototype Catalyst's for Art's system, and I plan to get back to those and some other ideas after I get some of my current projects better wrapped up.


Fortunately the market has started to actually look more closely at on/off axis and power response (the two are different), and I am encouraged to see these trends helping with the slow market acceptance of more suitable solutions. At the same time I still shake my head when I see new product roll out with mid-low sensitivity, wasted extension below ~50Hz, and no chance at the dynamic levels clearly justified by modern movies and music.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
10 years ago it was very difficult to outsub the mains but now that sub drivers have taken off in performance it's quite easy to do now. I'd say this is probably the most common problem with most individual's home theaters simply because having the bass shake everything is exciting. Luckily, this is also probably the easiest problem to resolve by simply lowering the sub level to match the mains.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,144 Posts
I'm ok in my setup
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,542 Posts
I've always wondered what people's mains were when they're being matched with huge sonosubs or IB's. Your definately looseing something, when you transition from multiple, longthrow, 15" or larger subs, to a few 6.5ers with maybe 5mm xmax.


I like to have a LOT of headroom over the whole range of freq's. I always seem to hear a certain amount of "squishing", or strain in the lower midbass, with average sized set-up's, and dynamic soundtrack's. I would imagine that the distortion would be greatly increased also during loud sequences.


I'm running 2 pairs of 11year old Klipsch CF-4's for my mains and surrounds. I'm probably going to try and get 1 more pair to handle center and back surround duties. It's hard to find a discontinued 10yr old set of speaks in good condition with the right finish
That'll give me a grand total of 12 12" drivers covering the midbass
. I'm probably going to look at active biamping them all, at somepoint, but that's a whole lot of amps and money. Before I get to the bi-amping thing, I need to find that last pair, and figure out what kind of sub I'm going to DIY to keep up with this...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,880 Posts
Do you know what is sweet? Getting into car audio 24 years ago. The market had

very good affordable product to implement fully active 4 way stereo systems, custom

installs, to get sound that was superior to what home audio had to offer - provided

that you know what you are doing - lol. This midbass problem existed then and still does

today, both car and home audio. When I moved into home audio much later in time,

I noticed that this home audio market was still stuck in the dark ages, people doing the same

things as they did before. There is a small light at the end of the home audio tunnel from

a commercial point of view, but for DIY, you can do anythying you want as long

as you don't follow the home audio 'commerical' crowds. lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,193 Posts
Egg-zacktly.


I just don't understand what's going through people's minds when they think that the natural complement to their little 7" 2-way mains is a subwoofer that can move 6 liters of air. (Or even one liter of air, for that matter.) All an out-of-balance sub going to do is give a person clean low-end fundamental that will make the whole system sound disjointed and amusical because of the power compression, enormous distortion at high levels, and so on that the mains are putting out at high levels.


Those kinds of issues can lead a person to think that the sub isn't "musical" or whatever when in truth it is fine and the rest of the system just isn't worthy of it.


Also, I concur with MS that there's been a paradigm shift in the way people use speakers that has not yet been properly addressed by speaker sellers. Extension below 50 or 60 Hz is basically unneeded in modern mains, whereas clean high-SPL midbass (and up) along with directivity control is more important than ever. The HT main of the near future should be something with at least 2 8" midbasses in a sealed enclosure and either a coincident/concentric mid-tweet or a waveguide-loaded tweeter. At the bare minimum for most rooms.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,144 Posts
like I said, I'm ok in my setup



you guys need some cheese with that whine?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,880 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo /forum/post/0


like I said, I'm ok in my setup



you guys need some cheese with that whine?

Double post. Go directly to jail, don't collect your $200
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,144 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by thylantyr /forum/post/0


Double post. Go directly to jail, don't collect your $200

i'm just saying....lots of whinning



ps- I still have one get-out-jail card left
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,421 Posts
Some of the purists would say that you are not though, crossing an 18" sub to 8" mains is a big no-no, you need those mains' woofers to be no less than half as big as your sub. I completely disagree of course, as long as your mains can handle decently high spl around the crossover point, there is no need for any more other than to have headroom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
956 Posts
KG,


Yeah, What were you thinking? Oh I know... "yummy yummu yummy I got love in my tummy"



It may be wrong over over sub the system, but there is always going to be a weak link. Either let the sub coast along, enjoying the headroom and be happy OR keep upgrading the rest to keep up at wide open throttle. To be, or not to be. That is the question!


Dr V
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,575 Posts
Mark,


Just wondering by your post if you are looking into producing full range speakers in the future and also if you could suggest some at this time (since if I read your post correctly there are some solutions out there that wont cost an arm and a leg). Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,144 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran /forum/post/0


How 'bout this for a mismatch.Those poor little mini monitors.

but that's not what you have now though....


Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 /forum/post/0


Some of the purists would say that you are not though, crossing an 18" sub to 8" mains is a big no-no, you need those mains' woofers to be no less than half as big as your sub. I completely disagree of course, as long as your mains can handle decently high spl around the crossover point, there is no need for any more other than to have headroom.

correct, and that's why you and I dont know many "purists" that have dual low-tuned large EBS 18" subs, capable of clean [email protected] each..... Going from something like that to a pair of 2-way monitors is definitely a hard problem to solve acoustically in terms of SQ at the crossover point, but when you have larger full range floor standers, even though you are talking 8" woofers, when properly level matched and calibrated, can come close to having as good a transition as possible.


I don't know many floorstanding mains that carry 12" woofers among the majority of the population....you do have them in your occassional DIY nutcase (
), but certainly it is not the norm.


I think common logic makes sense.....dont go from quad tumult 15's, or dual avalanche large low tune EBS 18's, to some tiny monitors......but you certainly dont need avalon eidolons or Evolution Acoustics MM3's to match them either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,980 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/0


Egg-zacktly.


I just don't understand what's going through people's minds when they think that the natural complement to their little 7" 2-way mains is a subwoofer that can move 6 liters of air. (Or even one liter of air, for that matter.) All an out-of-balance sub going to do is give a person clean low-end fundamental that will make the whole system sound disjointed and amusical because of the power compression, enormous distortion at high levels, and so on that the mains are putting out at high levels.


Those kinds of issues can lead a person to think that the sub isn't "musical" or whatever when in truth it is fine and the rest of the system just isn't worthy of it.

While I mostly agree, I want to be clear that adding a more capable sub doesn't make the system sound bad. Of course more headroom and big LF capability helps the sound dramatically. It's not that the sub won't mate up to a compact bookshelf, but rather that the next bottleneck to experiencing the best your sub has to offer lies in the main speakers and the crossover to them. Before upgrading you can put in some effort in shifting the crossover higher and doing your best to smooth the transition. The speakers could use 4-12 small drivers, or 1-2 larger drivers. So long as directivity isn't an issue, and it really never is at these frequencies, there is no rule by which drivers need be similar in size to mate properly. All you need to mate them properly is a measurement system and some know-how.


There's no reason you can't have huge capability in the low frequencies and mate it to a much smaller driver, you just need enough capability for the levels you like to listen at. Of course when you get more deep bass capability, those levels inevitably creep higher.



When the speakers aren't comfortably producing the levels you are asking from them, you will hear what has been described by others here, where the bass starts to take over and sound like a mass of LF energy and not defined events. This is where people get the idea that big subwoofers can't match small speakers. They can, just not at the levels that they want to play the big subwoofer!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,980 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam /forum/post/0


Mark,


Just wondering by your post if you are looking into producing full range speakers in the future and also if you could suggest some at this time (since if I read your post correctly there are some solutions out there that wont cost an arm and a leg). Thanks.

As I state above, most ARE expensive. Suitability does really depend on your room size and what sort of intensity you are after, and even your subwoofer capability and locations. Big, powered 3 way studio monitors are at the top of the heap, and most cost big money as in $5,000-25,000 per speaker. In the home market the options are much smaller. One rather nice performer is the current Triad Gold LCR, and are around $1850 MSRP/speaker. The larger Performa series center and 3-way mains from Revel are also nice. I'm mixed on the Klipsch THX-Ultra2 speakers, but the larger of the two is much better than many other options. Snell also has some decent designs in their larger LCR mains. There are others, but they tend to start lacking in various areas, and very few of the above are what I consider optimal for big rooms with big subs.


I (or someone else I would design for) will be producing full range speakers of my design at some point in the future. When is not certain, but I'd say most certainly by next summer, with a few things happening sooner. The prototype speakers in Art Sonneborn's system will be the first I'll produce that I'll call the Catalyst, for all the reasons talked about above.
I might make some changes to it, but that would only be in the direction of more capability. Here's my idea of a more appropriate solution, although the tweeter is at its limit after compensating for the MicroPerf screen:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,152 Posts
I see this problem ALL THE TIME. I do think that more attention is being paid to it now though.


Mark, where is that pic of your Catalyst next to one of Art's old mains?



My system is not perfect as I am running dual sealed 15s to mains with 4x6.5s. When I got the subs dialed where I wanted them I needed to put more power behind the mains to balance things back out. My center is where it is still lacking. (2x6.5s) I hope to be able to address that in my next room. (we are moving half way across the country in 2 weeks)


-Eli
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top