Outlaw products offer very good performance and value for the money but are not on the same level as Mark Levinson. Sort of like the difference between a Honda Civic and Mercedes Benz S series. If you were to move to a Levinson amp, you would also need to upgrade your source/front end components and speakers to the same level.
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Outlaw Amps vs. Mark Levinson Amps
Is there a big difference between outlaw's top of the line 7700 and a Mark Levinson Amp or should i save the extra cash and put it towards speakers?
1 - 20 of 57 Posts
Speakers always have the potential to make a bigger difference than amps. If you were rich, price no object who cares what you buy. But if you actually have to make a choice between amps or speakers, I wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium.
I spoke to a friend of a friend at a party who used to build and sell speakers. His speakers weren't selling that well. Someone told him to RAISE the price. They sold better. Consider that when thinking of buying very expensive audio gear. It's not a secret that people assume a higher price means a better product.
I spoke to a friend of a friend at a party who used to build and sell speakers. His speakers weren't selling that well. Someone told him to RAISE the price. They sold better. Consider that when thinking of buying very expensive audio gear. It's not a secret that people assume a higher price means a better product.
thanks for the honest feedback
Honest feedback? What a crock. You believe this guy? Gee I got a garage full of crap I would love to sell to you.
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooomz /forum/post/12903133
thanks for the honest feedback
Honest feedback? What a crock. You believe this guy? Gee I got a garage full of crap I would love to sell to you.
Ken
I've driven both a Civic and an S-class, and can assure you you'll know the difference between the two before you'll notice the sound difference between the Outlaw and the Mark Levinson. But I'm a car nut, so my opinion is going to be different than most.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen B /forum/post/12902470
Outlaw products offer very good performance and value for the money but are not on the same level as Mark Levinson. Sort of like the difference between a Honda Civic and Mercedes Benz S series. If you were to move to a Levinson amp, you would also need to upgrade your source/front end components and speakers to the same level.
I've driven both a Civic and an S-class, and can assure you you'll know the difference between the two before you'll notice the sound difference between the Outlaw and the Mark Levinson. But I'm a car nut, so my opinion is going to be different than most.
What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 /forum/post/12935325
Honest feedback? What a crock. You believe this guy? Gee I got a garage full of crap I would love to sell to you.
Ken
What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.
Gee, you could actually listen to each and decide for yourself instead of the "expert" opinions elicited above.
The 433, for example, costs say 10k? The Outlaw costs, say 2k?
Of course it's my opinion, but that's a big difference in price. I wouldn't pay it unless I thought there was a real difference between the two AND money was no object. Which was my point. If money was no object for the OP, he wouldn't be asking that question.
Of course it's my opinion, but that's a big difference in price. I wouldn't pay it unless I thought there was a real difference between the two AND money was no object. Which was my point. If money was no object for the OP, he wouldn't be asking that question.
Don't be concerned with Ken's reply, he has a garage full of crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/12936731
What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.
Don't be concerned with Ken's reply, he has a garage full of crap.
There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.
People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.
Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooomz /forum/post/12900008
Is there a big difference between outlaw's top of the line 7700 and a Mark Levinson Amp or should i save the extra cash and put it towards speakers?
There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.
People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.
Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.
The more and more I get into this addictive hobby the more I believe in this post. To me room acoustics come first, then speakers, then source material and finally amplification and pre/pro or receiver.
This is definately something I think could easily be proven in double blind tests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW /forum/post/12936853
There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.
People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.
Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.
The more and more I get into this addictive hobby the more I believe in this post. To me room acoustics come first, then speakers, then source material and finally amplification and pre/pro or receiver.
This is definately something I think could easily be proven in double blind tests.
Alot of us newbies don't know what to listen for though...
For instance, I never knew much about flat frequency response, soundstage, high volume clarity, still don't know much about impedance, capacitance.
But after reading enough I do know that my outlaw 2200 way outperforms the built in amps in my yamaha receiver, key information I learned about is "all channels driven"
Now I'm talking the difference between a $300 receiver and (3) channels of separate 200watt amps at $300 each....there I saw a huge difference in performance.
But this increase in performance was the ability to handle higher volumes, and lower volumes are even clearer, large explosions don't tail off and sound muted.
But 2k vs 10k? what would you even listen for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow 8 /forum/post/12936764
Gee, you could actually listen to each and decide for yourself instead of the "expert" opinions elicited above.
Alot of us newbies don't know what to listen for though...
For instance, I never knew much about flat frequency response, soundstage, high volume clarity, still don't know much about impedance, capacitance.
But after reading enough I do know that my outlaw 2200 way outperforms the built in amps in my yamaha receiver, key information I learned about is "all channels driven"
Now I'm talking the difference between a $300 receiver and (3) channels of separate 200watt amps at $300 each....there I saw a huge difference in performance.
But this increase in performance was the ability to handle higher volumes, and lower volumes are even clearer, large explosions don't tail off and sound muted.
But 2k vs 10k? what would you even listen for?
Easily. However, it isn't likely that anybody will do one. There is isn't anything to be gained by it, really. I've done many, many, many blind amplifier tests and have rarely found audible differences between amps being used under normal circumstances. I've never tested these two so that's why I say doubt rather than know. Amps should be transparent and most of them are. That's a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGOLFER /forum/post/12936953
The more and more I get into this addictive hobby the more I believe in this post. To me room acoustics come first, then speakers, then source material and finally amplification and pre/pro or receiver.
This is definately something I think could easily be proven in double blind tests.
Easily. However, it isn't likely that anybody will do one. There is isn't anything to be gained by it, really. I've done many, many, many blind amplifier tests and have rarely found audible differences between amps being used under normal circumstances. I've never tested these two so that's why I say doubt rather than know. Amps should be transparent and most of them are. That's a good thing.
I guess it was the part about raising the price to make them sell better.
I would say that how a price is derived is not all based on the components that make up the equipment, but on very high end equipment the components and research help to go into the cost. For you to say you wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium makes no sense and is a irresponsible statement. The person should take a listen and make up their own mind.
Now I could be misinterpreting your statement and you are saying that you get more bang for the buck buying speakers than an amp. That would be a fair statement.
Oh yea, and to set the record straight, I have no sister any longer as I sold her to help afford my high end equipment. I do however have a garage full of junk.
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/12936731
What part of what I said don't you believe? The speaker story? 100% true. Not paying the Mark Levinson premium? That was opinion, and I believe that was fairly clear from how I worded it.
I guess it was the part about raising the price to make them sell better.
I would say that how a price is derived is not all based on the components that make up the equipment, but on very high end equipment the components and research help to go into the cost. For you to say you wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium makes no sense and is a irresponsible statement. The person should take a listen and make up their own mind.
Now I could be misinterpreting your statement and you are saying that you get more bang for the buck buying speakers than an amp. That would be a fair statement.
Oh yea, and to set the record straight, I have no sister any longer as I sold her to help afford my high end equipment. I do however have a garage full of junk.
Ken
In the high end world where unit volumes are extremely low, the retail price of a product normally has little to do with the cost of development and manufacture. It normally has to do with the company's overhead and profit divided by the number of units sold or expected to be sold. I can't think of many industries where economies of scale show their negative side more than high end audio.
I wouldn't pay the price of a Levinson either. As a recovered audiophile I can tell you, however, that there was time.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken6217 /forum/post/12937372
I would say that how a price is derived is not all based on the components that make up the equipment, but on very high end equipment the components and research help to go into the cost. For you to say you wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium makes no sense and is a irresponsible statement. The person should take a listen and make up their own mind.
In the high end world where unit volumes are extremely low, the retail price of a product normally has little to do with the cost of development and manufacture. It normally has to do with the company's overhead and profit divided by the number of units sold or expected to be sold. I can't think of many industries where economies of scale show their negative side more than high end audio.
I wouldn't pay the price of a Levinson either. As a recovered audiophile I can tell you, however, that there was time.......
This isn't rocket science though some with their own agendas want you to think you need to buy a certain brand or model to get great sound. Bring a CD you know well to a demo, make sure the amps are level matched and listen. Is there a difference in sound quality? Is it significant to you? Do you enjoy the sound of one amp more than the other? How much more if any? You are just as qualified to make this judgment as any one else and since you are spending your hard earned money, your opinion is most important any way since you will live with the decision you make. This hobby is supposed to be about fun so just go listen and enjoy. If you hear no difference do not be intimidated by dealer or other person who implies you must have poor hearing acuity to not buy what he is pushing your way.
![]()
Quote:
Originally Posted by imromo24 /forum/post/12937019
Alot of us newbies don't know what to listen for though...
For instance, I never knew much about flat frequency response, soundstage, high volume clarity, still don't know much about impedance, capacitance.
But after reading enough I do know that my outlaw 2200 way outperforms the built in amps in my yamaha receiver, key information I learned about is "all channels driven"
Now I'm talking the difference between a $300 receiver and (3) channels of separate 200watt amps at $300 each....there I saw a huge difference in performance.
But this increase in performance was the ability to handle higher volumes, and lower volumes are even clearer, large explosions don't tail off and sound muted.
But 2k vs 10k? what would you even listen for?
This isn't rocket science though some with their own agendas want you to think you need to buy a certain brand or model to get great sound. Bring a CD you know well to a demo, make sure the amps are level matched and listen. Is there a difference in sound quality? Is it significant to you? Do you enjoy the sound of one amp more than the other? How much more if any? You are just as qualified to make this judgment as any one else and since you are spending your hard earned money, your opinion is most important any way since you will live with the decision you make. This hobby is supposed to be about fun so just go listen and enjoy. If you hear no difference do not be intimidated by dealer or other person who implies you must have poor hearing acuity to not buy what he is pushing your way.
I have to agree and disagree with your post:
Concerning room acoustics, I could not agree more. If you have a poor room, It makes no difference what electronics or speakers you have. Everything will sound poor. (In particular, those of you with extremely "live" rooms have a major problem)
Concerning you comment that the Levinson has a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads- well that it just not the case. (Please visit UltimateAVmag.com and conduct a search for Outlaw in the amplifier area. That is how we build everything.
As for the differences you hear comparing a Levinson to an Outlaw, I am not going to touch that one at all. That is for each customer to evaluate on his own.
However, for the record, there is no speaker load that an Outlaw amplifier cannot drive perfectly no matter how "difficult" it is. Our amps will not overheat, current limit, or shut down. That is fact and has been the case since we introduced our first power amplifier, nearly nine years ago.
Best Regards,
Peter Tribeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW /forum/post/12936853
There would certainly be a difference in build and component quality. It is also likely that the Levinson would have a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads. I doubt there would much difference in sound under normal circulstances of use in a truly objective listening test. Both should be transparent.
People determine value in different ways. It isn't a very popular position but my own belief relative to audio is that room acoustics are by far the most important element in sound reproduction. The speakers are a distant second and everything else is close to being trivial.
Yes, no need to pile on. I already said it. It isn't a very popular position but at least it is based on many, many years of experience.
I have to agree and disagree with your post:
Concerning room acoustics, I could not agree more. If you have a poor room, It makes no difference what electronics or speakers you have. Everything will sound poor. (In particular, those of you with extremely "live" rooms have a major problem)
Concerning you comment that the Levinson has a stronger power supply and better heat dissipation for driving difficult loads- well that it just not the case. (Please visit UltimateAVmag.com and conduct a search for Outlaw in the amplifier area. That is how we build everything.
As for the differences you hear comparing a Levinson to an Outlaw, I am not going to touch that one at all. That is for each customer to evaluate on his own.
However, for the record, there is no speaker load that an Outlaw amplifier cannot drive perfectly no matter how "difficult" it is. Our amps will not overheat, current limit, or shut down. That is fact and has been the case since we introduced our first power amplifier, nearly nine years ago.
Best Regards,
Peter Tribeman
that's because most people don't know what are the speaker specs they should be looking out for , let alone decide with their ears. So, the only spec they know is that the more expensive, the better it is. It is a Universal Truth. Forget about specs and measurements and audition. They will tell you they paid $100k for the speakers and brush aside all the measurement figures you throw at them.
err... Bose speaks to this group of people. Tell your friend to learn marketing from Bose. Engineering is passe these days. The successful company is the one with the best marketing folks and with manufacturing plants in China or India.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/12903016
Speakers always have the potential to make a bigger difference than amps. If you were rich, price no object who cares what you buy. But if you actually have to make a choice between amps or speakers, I wouldn't pay the Mark Levinson premium.
I spoke to a friend of a friend at a party who used to build and sell speakers. His speakers weren't selling that well. Someone told him to RAISE the price. They sold better. Consider that when thinking of buying very expensive audio gear. It's not a secret that people assume a higher price means a better product.
that's because most people don't know what are the speaker specs they should be looking out for , let alone decide with their ears. So, the only spec they know is that the more expensive, the better it is. It is a Universal Truth. Forget about specs and measurements and audition. They will tell you they paid $100k for the speakers and brush aside all the measurement figures you throw at them.
err... Bose speaks to this group of people. Tell your friend to learn marketing from Bose. Engineering is passe these days. The successful company is the one with the best marketing folks and with manufacturing plants in China or India.
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