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Discussion Starter #1
Hi


Does anyone know if there are hacked PAL pro DVD players which put out the progressive signals on RGB (Scart) instead of YUV ?


The reason for my question is: Pio 43 plasma media box seemingly doesn't accept PAL Pro on YUV. But it should be possible to circumvent this via RGB :confused:



Am I wrong ?


Thx



Kemal
 

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Good to hear there may be an RGB progressive route available.


Like I said elsewhere though I'd love to hear from someone with an HD variant 433 or 503 Pioneer, becuse all I can say right now is that the media box on the 503 did not pass through a PAL Progressive signal fed on component inputs, it may be that it just will not pass PAL progressive at all, or it may be the component route only that doesn't work.


I suspect it isn't going to be easy to get this tested though :(


Mark
 

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PAL cannot utilize progressive scanning, i am not sure as to the truth to this, here is the info


taken from http://www.sexgoremutants.f9.co.uk/frame1.html news page



Our friends at Tartan have just announced re-release plans for the superb 'Battle Royale' and this is news that should thrill our US readers in particular...


Tartan Video has taken the challenge of the latest home entertainment innovation and has produced its first DVD to utilise NTSC progressive scan technology, currently a unique feature of NTSC players, now available in the UK. Progressive scan technology substantially enhances picture quality and the viewing experience as a whole, but while it remains a feature of NTSC DVD players only, this added value cannot be offered by DVDs made in the PAL format. Further enhanced features available on this NTSC release are the new Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack and the newly created digital subtitles which Tartan Video was unable to access for its original PAL release. Expect a release on May 27th.



if anyone has anythig to dispute or back this up please post.


also PAL, in case some didnt know, has more lines of resolution than NTSC.
 

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DeepRedInferno,


that's a load of you know what :)


PAL progressive is fine and working in hundreds of AVS Forum users players - including mine. There is some confusion about whether PAL progressive via RGBHV is officially sanctioned, hence that's why it does not appear widely in brand-name players.


But it is working, both through Y/Pb/Pr and RGBHV outputs, trust me.

joys_R_us,


Skyworth will also output PAL prog from the VGA output in RGBHV. I have confirmed this myself.


cheers,

Halcy
 

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The Skyworth option looks interesting, do you happen to know if the signal is at PC frequency levels or if it is still a normal video signal ?


Reason I ask is that a PC signal is most likely going to be allowed through without hitting the video processing parts of the media box and so offers a very good chance of getting a PAL progressive signal to the screen.


If it is just using the VGA connection to output a video signal which is often lower frequency than PC signals then there may be problems as the media box only documents connecting a PC via the VGA connector.


Mark
 

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Quote:
Like I said elsewhere though I'd love to hear from someone with an HD variant 433 or 503 Pioneer
If it does not accept PAL progresive thru component, it for sure will not accept it thru RGB.

Another thing is that using SCART connector for progressive scanning is the worst option simply because signal has very high bandwith and can interfere or be interfered with, with other signals send thru it. Whenever possible seperate cables for video and audio should be used.

Quote:
also PAL, in case some didnt know, has more lines of resolution than NTSC.
Did you know that PAL runs 4% faster on film based sources. Let's not start this again. This has been discussed many times on software forum and usually has no bearing on picture quality. What mainly matters is transfer, encoding, how much EE and so forth. This is not High Definition!
 

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thakns for the clarifications, i dont have any equipment to test whether PAL can run at progressive, as i have a line doubler, which will double PAL or NTSC.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MarkTaylor
The Skyworth option looks interesting, do you happen to know if the signal is at PC frequency levels or if it is still a normal video signal ?


Reason I ask is that a PC signal is most likely going to be allowed through without hitting the video processing parts of the media box and so offers a very good chance of getting a PAL progressive signal to the screen.


If it is just using the VGA connection to output a video signal which is often lower frequency than PC signals then there may be problems as the media box only documents connecting a PC via the VGA connector.


Mark
PAL via RGB it's similar to say PAL via NTSC. Either you have PAL or RGB.


Nevertheless, very few displays can sync on a component 576p signal, but normally RGB should be okay. Check your specification for your device. Another cheap alternative instead of the Skyworth is the Malata. Please be aware that only the second release here in HK has a "VGA" out. In Europe I believe all of them came with a "VGA" socket. If you happen to only have a SCART input, you can simply buy an adapter. It's only a physical difference so with some soldering skills you can make one yourself
 

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bmwrob, the point of my question was that the signal output through a VGA connector although RGB, could be in the frequency range used by video devices which tends to start lower, at around 15KHz, or it could be in the range used by PC devices which typically go from around 30KHz upwards, this makes a difference since the VGA input on the Pioneer media box is listed as accepting PC signals and makes no mention of the lower video frequency range.


Life always get confusing when mixing video standards and connection standards in the same paragraph.


Not all RGB signals are equal it seems :)


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thx very much for the replies !


The more I think about it the more I believe it. If one went the RGB route the media box "wouldn't know" that it is a PAL signal. I would expect the signal to be put directly through to the screen. Seemingly there are some DVD players like Skyworth/Matrix available which put out RGB signals..


Why not connect them to plasma (through the media box) ? Why care about frequency ranges when an RGB signal is an RGB signal...


I keep hoping and searching..


Hands on experience would even be better though !


THIS BLOODY FILM INDUSTRY IS RIDING ME CRAZY !


:mad:


I AM NOT COPYING ANYTHING I JUST WANNA SEE WHAT IS ALREADY ON THE DVD !!!
 

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The reason I'm worrying about the RGB signal frequency is that if you run RGB into one of the SCART sockets on the media box it is going to assume it is a video signal and route it through the internal scaler and de-interlacer which is where I suspect the problem is with the PAL progressive signal.


If you can route it via the VGA connector it is more likely to by pass the video processing side of things, but you can only do that if the signal looks like a PC signal (>30KHz) or if the VGA connector can handle video level RGB signals.


Mark
 

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PAL video is a bit more than 15KHz. Progressive PAL video is double that so it is over 30KHz. The PAL Progressive VGA output from my Skyworth DVD player (and any similar player) is at about 31KHz and can be displayed on a PC monitor. When I got it that was the first thing I tried it on. Then I hooked it up the RGB inputs of my projector where it now lives.
 

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Mark,


SCART is an interface connector type, "component" is usually referred to the video signal standard (Y/Cb/Cr or Y/Pb/Pr) although technically RGB-variants are component video as well.


However, I have heard from a modified HK DVD-25 owner that he is getting PAL Prog out of the SCART output (which would mean RGBs). I've yet to confirm this though.


EDIT: Well, now I've finally confirmed it. It can't produce PAL progressive, as it will transcode from PAL to NTSC and output NTSC progressive even for PAL discs.


cheers,

Halcy
 

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Hi,


I'd just like to add the fact that I've used a Skyworth connected to a Sony 1031 projector via a vga to scart adapter cable (r,g,b +gnds +h&v combined to the video pin). The Sony will accept a pal (or ntsc) progressive signal via it's scart input with no difficulty.


The Skyworth outputs a "pc" type vga signal (around 30kHz). What hasn't been addressed here is the issue of sync voltages. The typical scart output sync voltage is usually too low for many devices to lock onto. My ecp projector will not lock onto an interlaced RGBs output even though the projector is capable of handling the 15kHz signal. If I boost the signal levels (I use a kramer VM-19 S-video to RGBs converter) then the projector locks on just fine.It would be useful to find out the sync levels on the scart progressive output from the H.K. (dvd25). I suspect that manufacturers may do two things when they bring out progressive pal tv's_ they can either add a vga type input or they could set two sync trigger voltages on the scart input. The lower sync voltage would engage interlaced RGBs and the higher would engage progressive RGBs. I'm sure some of the Loewe tvs available in europe have vga inputs but some of them might be able to support progressive RGB on the scart. Some of them support (progressive ?) component on the scart.
 

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Ofer and Halcy, I'm totaly clear on what a SCART connector is, and I also started from the position that you had to use component for progressive signals, but we seem to be hearing that some devices, particularly those aimed at the Hong Kong market, are now capable of outputting PAL progressive in ways other than component outputs.


Brian is very right to raise the issue of sync voltages though as some of the cable soultions do not seem able to provide the voltages needed.


All of this started as an exercise to see if there might be a way to get PAL progressive displayed through a Pioneer media box. Geordie and Brian confirm that the Skyworth outputs a PC type VGA signal and that seems to represent the most likely way to get the signal through the media box to the plasma.


Thanks for the input everyone.


Mark
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Halcy
However, I have heard from a modified HK DVD-25 owner that he is getting PAL Prog out of the SCART output (which would mean RGBs). I've yet to confirm this though.
This is really interesting! :)


I've posted the same thing and the link for this thread in another forum. That forum is courrently read and moderated by a good Reviewer of the best HT italian Magazine (Emidio Frattaroli)... i know he's trying the H/K dvd25 for the june issue:
http://
 

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Just wanna add one comment about RGB progressive (either PAL or NTSC) :


I've successefully modify a Pioneer DV-S733A player with RGB progressive instead of YPrPB original output.


The reason why I've made it is that my triple CRT projector is not able to handle YPrPB progressive YUV signals components but do it perfectly in RGB progressive (34KHz).


There is no technical limitations about outputing RGB progressive components on DVD player SCART : just some commercial / MV copyrights issue !


PAL or NTSC issue doesn't make any difference in RGB components (just the syncs frequencies changed !)


Please read the sumary of my test in : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3&pagenumber=2



Hope this could help how the things are going in this copyrighted world !


Cheers

John.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Quote:
Originally posted by Halcy
joys_R_us,


Skyworth will also output PAL prog from the VGA output in RGBHV. I have confirmed this myself.


cheers,

Halcy [/b]
Halcy,


I don't know if the media box of Pio would like the RGBHV. Here is the list out of their brochure:


Connection terminals PDP-433HDE


Input 1 (SCART) AV in, RGB in, TV out


Input 2 (SCART) AV in/out, S input, i/o Link.A


Input 3 (SCART/ Component) AV in/out, RGB in, S in, Y/Pb/Pr In (RCA pin)


Monitor Out (RCA pin) AV out, S out


Input 4 (Front) AV Input, S input


PC (Front) D-sub 15 In, Sterio Mini Jack (Audio)


SR Control In/Out Mini jack x 2


From what is listed above can one say I can use D-sub in for RGB output of Skyworth or similar ? Or do I have to use one of the others ???


Thx


BTW: I just went through the specifications of Pioneer 747 on their German web site: They are stating: "Component output (Y, PB,PR coax ) SUITABLE FOR 525P " !!!! what are they trying to tell us HACK ME ???:D
 
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