With a region-free player, should there be any difference in quality between PAL and NTSC encoded disks? Should I be indifferent between the two formats or does one have more information than the other? If it matters, I have an ED (PWD6UY) display. Thanks.
PAL v NTSC disks
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Hi Donutz,
Thats a tricky subject , in my opinion. A lot of different factors come into it. Am I correct in saying your ED display will be capable of 480p and or 576p, that depends on where you live. Say U.S.A.
If your DVD player outputs true Pal and true NTSC, not pal to ntsc conversion or the other way, type players. Players that convert do not always do a good job.
In the real world, a nicely pressed Pal disc theoretically should beat an NTSC. But this does not happen much.
But I come from Pal land , a lot of Pal discs are actually imposters . NTSC posing as Pal. My earlier model Pioneer DVD actually lights up on the display telling you that the disc is NTSC , when the DVD cover states PAL Region 4 all over it.
I have found that some discs are better than others, NTSC has improved 100% on what was shown on laserdisc ( the colour seems truer, no funny reds, or flickering ) but this is my opinion. I have about 90% ntsc and 10% Pal.
For example, heres a few I have noticed differences,
region 1 version of The Mummy ( Brendan Fraser ) is awful , but the Pal one is excellent.
region 1 of The Jolson Story is excellent , but the PAL version is really awful.
Disney animation Region 4 Pal are nothing marvellous , but NTSC are perfect.
All of the newer Region 1 titles are excellent now , some even look like HD.
I know I may be opening a can of worms by saying all this, but this is my opinion of course.
I hope by now you have not fallen asleep by me rattling on , but this could go on for years comparing discs.
I hope this a may have been a help, and not a hindrance.
Regards
Juz
Thats a tricky subject , in my opinion. A lot of different factors come into it. Am I correct in saying your ED display will be capable of 480p and or 576p, that depends on where you live. Say U.S.A.
If your DVD player outputs true Pal and true NTSC, not pal to ntsc conversion or the other way, type players. Players that convert do not always do a good job.
In the real world, a nicely pressed Pal disc theoretically should beat an NTSC. But this does not happen much.
But I come from Pal land , a lot of Pal discs are actually imposters . NTSC posing as Pal. My earlier model Pioneer DVD actually lights up on the display telling you that the disc is NTSC , when the DVD cover states PAL Region 4 all over it.
I have found that some discs are better than others, NTSC has improved 100% on what was shown on laserdisc ( the colour seems truer, no funny reds, or flickering ) but this is my opinion. I have about 90% ntsc and 10% Pal.
For example, heres a few I have noticed differences,
region 1 version of The Mummy ( Brendan Fraser ) is awful , but the Pal one is excellent.
region 1 of The Jolson Story is excellent , but the PAL version is really awful.
Disney animation Region 4 Pal are nothing marvellous , but NTSC are perfect.
All of the newer Region 1 titles are excellent now , some even look like HD.
I know I may be opening a can of worms by saying all this, but this is my opinion of course.
I hope by now you have not fallen asleep by me rattling on , but this could go on for years comparing discs.
I hope this a may have been a help, and not a hindrance.
Regards
Juz
Donutz,
Main rule of thumb here is look where the material originated. If it is a US TV series (i.e X-files, Star trek), get it on NTSC....if it is a UK or Europe TV series (i.e. BBC, Dr Who, Only fools and horses) , get it on PAL.
Same for music videos/concerts. Look for where is was filmed because usually the video standard of that region is used to capture the event (of course these days more and more video recording devices are standards free or digital, but a lot of material released on DVD is from archives). For example Corrs : unplugged looks brilliant in PAL (it was filmed in Ireland), but only so-so on NTSC.
Try to avoid program material that has undergone standards conversion. However, there are exceptions, and as indicated by Juz this doesn't hold in every case. But i find that this works for me.
You may say, "But you haven't mentioned films".......Yes, this is interesting. If you look at the cover of the same film on a NTSC disc and a PAL disc look at the running time. You notice that the NTSC disc seems to have a longer running time? That's because it has......4% to be exact. When a film undergoes telecine to PAL, the film is sped up by 4%. Reason: films run at 24 fps, PAL is 25fps. However, it's not possible to speed up the film to NTSC's 30fps, so frames are repeated in what's called 2 by 3 pull down.
To cut a long story short........if you want to watch a film at home with the exact same presentation as you watched it in the cinema, then you have to choose NTSC. Otherwise the action and other filmed events are moving faster by 4%....not what the director intended!
At the end of the day you make your choice.....for me, I always by films on NTSC.....but music and TV varies depending the origination.
Hope it helps.
Cheers
Main rule of thumb here is look where the material originated. If it is a US TV series (i.e X-files, Star trek), get it on NTSC....if it is a UK or Europe TV series (i.e. BBC, Dr Who, Only fools and horses) , get it on PAL.
Same for music videos/concerts. Look for where is was filmed because usually the video standard of that region is used to capture the event (of course these days more and more video recording devices are standards free or digital, but a lot of material released on DVD is from archives). For example Corrs : unplugged looks brilliant in PAL (it was filmed in Ireland), but only so-so on NTSC.
Try to avoid program material that has undergone standards conversion. However, there are exceptions, and as indicated by Juz this doesn't hold in every case. But i find that this works for me.
You may say, "But you haven't mentioned films".......Yes, this is interesting. If you look at the cover of the same film on a NTSC disc and a PAL disc look at the running time. You notice that the NTSC disc seems to have a longer running time? That's because it has......4% to be exact. When a film undergoes telecine to PAL, the film is sped up by 4%. Reason: films run at 24 fps, PAL is 25fps. However, it's not possible to speed up the film to NTSC's 30fps, so frames are repeated in what's called 2 by 3 pull down.
To cut a long story short........if you want to watch a film at home with the exact same presentation as you watched it in the cinema, then you have to choose NTSC. Otherwise the action and other filmed events are moving faster by 4%....not what the director intended!
At the end of the day you make your choice.....for me, I always by films on NTSC.....but music and TV varies depending the origination.
Hope it helps.
Cheers
About film:
Yes NTSC and PAL have different frame rates. But how about sampling? Is a NTSC DVD sampled diffently than a PAL dvd (i.e. 480 vs 576 lines?) Or is it just sampled once (say an Americam movie @480 lines) and then just upsampled for PAL distribution?
Yes NTSC and PAL have different frame rates. But how about sampling? Is a NTSC DVD sampled diffently than a PAL dvd (i.e. 480 vs 576 lines?) Or is it just sampled once (say an Americam movie @480 lines) and then just upsampled for PAL distribution?
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I have a v880 to a 51s500 rptv.
I don't notice any difference in quality from a PAL disc to a NTSC disk.
But, there are differences in the encoding of various discs from around the world.
For instance, the Raising Arizona R1 NTSC disc is not anamorphic. The R2 PAL disc is and has a much better picture.
Imo, I can not notice any difference with the 4% speedup. And by paying attention to the dvd comparison sites out there, you can always find the best version of the film regardless of region or NTSC or PAL.
I don't notice any difference in quality from a PAL disc to a NTSC disk.
But, there are differences in the encoding of various discs from around the world.
For instance, the Raising Arizona R1 NTSC disc is not anamorphic. The R2 PAL disc is and has a much better picture.
Imo, I can not notice any difference with the 4% speedup. And by paying attention to the dvd comparison sites out there, you can always find the best version of the film regardless of region or NTSC or PAL.
Slonk,
In days of early video and even on LD, many films were scanned at 480 lines and the master upsampled for a PAL release. Also the frame rate from the 3 by 2 pull down was manipulated to 25 fps. This sped up the film by 4% and also had a nasty artifact - very obvious stuttering and jerky movement during a camera pan. If you can find any, just have a look at the early PAL DiscoVision LD Disc - it's so obvious, it's painful.
But these days nearly all films for DVD (and VHS tapes) go through the telecine twice, once for 480 lines and once for 576 lines. The later is sped up by 4% and there is no 3 by 2 pull down.
KJ43,
Try watching a PAL and NTSC version of the same film in a A/B comparison........you'll be surprised how much the 4% adds! Even the actors voices sound a little "high pitched" since the audio is sped up by 4% too! I agree watching in isolation you may not notice that much. Where the 4% up in frame rate comes unstuck is where some fast action looks a little like those old silent comedy films!
As everything in this world it's our choice and what you are happy with. I've mentioned what i prefer, that might not work for everyone.
Cheers.
In days of early video and even on LD, many films were scanned at 480 lines and the master upsampled for a PAL release. Also the frame rate from the 3 by 2 pull down was manipulated to 25 fps. This sped up the film by 4% and also had a nasty artifact - very obvious stuttering and jerky movement during a camera pan. If you can find any, just have a look at the early PAL DiscoVision LD Disc - it's so obvious, it's painful.
But these days nearly all films for DVD (and VHS tapes) go through the telecine twice, once for 480 lines and once for 576 lines. The later is sped up by 4% and there is no 3 by 2 pull down.
KJ43,
Try watching a PAL and NTSC version of the same film in a A/B comparison........you'll be surprised how much the 4% adds! Even the actors voices sound a little "high pitched" since the audio is sped up by 4% too! I agree watching in isolation you may not notice that much. Where the 4% up in frame rate comes unstuck is where some fast action looks a little like those old silent comedy films!
As everything in this world it's our choice and what you are happy with. I've mentioned what i prefer, that might not work for everyone.
Cheers.
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91Steve91,
I just watched the R2 PAL version of City of God and everything was just perfect viewing wise, action and all.
I understand that if I wanted to, I could make myself notice the difference. But, I'm definitely happy with the way things are, no need for me to force myself to notice something that will get in the way of my film watching.
I just watched the R2 PAL version of City of God and everything was just perfect viewing wise, action and all.
I understand that if I wanted to, I could make myself notice the difference. But, I'm definitely happy with the way things are, no need for me to force myself to notice something that will get in the way of my film watching.
91Steve91 wrote:
But these days nearly all films for DVD (and VHS tapes) go through the telecine twice, once for 480 lines and once for 576 lines. The later is sped up by 4% and there is no 3 by 2 pull down.
Aha, now i'm getting the picture! It also appears that on the DVD media only the 24fps contents is recorded, doing 2-3 & 2-2 pull-down and speed-up 59.9 & 50 Hz as required using flags, for PAL and NTSC. So no space is wasted for the "extra" NTSC frames.
If correct PAL frames, and thus PAL disks, take up more space (by a factor of 576/480) and maybe have to be compressed a bit more. Right?
(Only too bad we ("we" as in PAL country) lose all those beautifull extra lines, because the world standarized on 480 lines for the SD plasma segment!)
I would have expected "flag ignoring" DVD players who just offer the orginal 24fps frames, and let a scaler/frame converter do the rest?
But these days nearly all films for DVD (and VHS tapes) go through the telecine twice, once for 480 lines and once for 576 lines. The later is sped up by 4% and there is no 3 by 2 pull down.
Aha, now i'm getting the picture! It also appears that on the DVD media only the 24fps contents is recorded, doing 2-3 & 2-2 pull-down and speed-up 59.9 & 50 Hz as required using flags, for PAL and NTSC. So no space is wasted for the "extra" NTSC frames.
If correct PAL frames, and thus PAL disks, take up more space (by a factor of 576/480) and maybe have to be compressed a bit more. Right?
(Only too bad we ("we" as in PAL country) lose all those beautifull extra lines, because the world standarized on 480 lines for the SD plasma segment!)
I would have expected "flag ignoring" DVD players who just offer the orginal 24fps frames, and let a scaler/frame converter do the rest?
Quote:
No, only NTSC disks are recorded at 24fps if film based. The player adds 2-3 pulldown so there is no speed up. PAL disks are recorded at 25fps and thus you get speed up.
Quote:
You do not lose any lines as real Plasma is progressive, meaning that those 480 lines are always displayed. NTSC and PAL are interlaced so they only show half the lines per half second. So in PAL you have 288 lines displayed first in a half a second scaled to 480 and then another 288 lines scaled to 480.
When comparing numbers you have to remember what type of signal you are dealing with. Make sure you compare progressive with progressive and interlaced with interlaced.
| Aha, now i'm getting the picture! It also appears that on the DVD media only the 24fps contents is recorded, doing 2-3 & 2-2 pull-down and speed-up 59.9 & 50 Hz as required using flags, for PAL and NTSC. So no space is wasted for the "extra" NTSC frames. |
Quote:
| (Only too bad we ("we" as in PAL country) lose all those beautifull extra lines, because the world standarized on 480 lines for the SD plasma segment!) |
When comparing numbers you have to remember what type of signal you are dealing with. Make sure you compare progressive with progressive and interlaced with interlaced.
Quote:
Most films these days at least in US and Japan are telecined into HD. From there thay are scaled down digitally to component NTSC and PAL.
| But these days nearly all films for DVD (and VHS tapes) go through the telecine twice, once for 480 lines and once for 576 lines. The later is sped up by 4% and there is no 3 by 2 pull down. |
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