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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I arrived about 1:10pm this afternoon, and Shawn Kelly greeted me at the door.


The P2.35 (not the actual model number, but my shorthand for this review) is similar in look and shape to the P752, but larger.


I took many photos with an Olympus D490 2.1 Mpixel camera, this time on a tripod http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif . I will download them from the camera and get them ready to send to Shawn in a day or two.


Fit and finish was similar to the P752- black anodized, similar prism design. The surface areas of the prisms are simply larger. The rail system design is similar to the P752 also.


Photos comparing the P752 with the P2.35 were taken and should be up in a day or two as described above.


We viewed the usual 5th Element scenes, plus Lost in Space opening sequence. Screen shots were taken of stills from these 2.35 movies.


We used Avia for geometry assessment. The "2.35 letterbox" test screen was used. This is a grid of white sqaures on a blck background, with a 2.35:1 gray marked area in the center of a 4:3 frame.


YxY 1.6 was used with WinDVD Dell OEM to vertically stretch the 2.35:1 test pattern that was letterboxed in a 4:3 frame to the 4:3 dimensions of the notebook screen. The P2.35 then vertically compressed the test pattern back to 2:35:1.


Again, screen shots were taken of both the P2.35 modified image and the unmodified, stretched test pattern for comparison.


As expected, there was blue and yellow color fringing similar to the P752, more pronounced due to the incresed compression of the optics, but not distracting during normal movie viewing at normal distances.


Barrel distortion was also increased vs. the P752, but Shawn emphasized that this was also due to the increased compression factor of the optical path. When the image was zoomed out to the black borders of a 2.35 screen, the barrel distortion was a non-issue for me.


The notebook used was the same high end Dell with GeForce video on board used during the last demo- search for the last Cygnus open house on the forums for exact model.


The projector used was the same as the last demo, also- an XGA 600 lumen LCD, a clone of the Mits X100 by Chisholm.


Shawn is looking for interest is this specialty item, so show your support if you want to see this product brought to market.



[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-17-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-17-2001).]
 

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I am definetly interested.


Also this site can now host pictures. When doing your post just click on the paper clip.


Cant wait to see the pictures.




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Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
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My thanks to Rob, Manny and Jeff for initial impressions of the P561 and especially to Rob for all the photos. Once Rob posts his pictures, fire away if there are any questions on this unit. As previously posted, there is obviously more distortion and color fringing with the P752, but the linearity is actually a little better. The brightness/resolution increase is dramatic, but the real question is whether there is a large enough interest to produce these compared to future 16:9 projector/P752 Panamorph combinations.


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Shawn Kelly

Cygnus Imaging
www.cgns.com
 

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RGB,


Thanks for posting your detailed impressions of the P561 (2.35:1 Panamorph lens).


I was in the initial preorder, and I'm eager to to team this new lens with my G15 D-ILA. I've got an ISCO I lens that I will still be keeping for 16:9 material, but the 2.35:1 lens should make for a sharp, bright picture and I can't wait to get mine. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


-Dean.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Uh-oh- the pressure's on... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


I'm going to try to dump the pictures from the camera in a few momemts...


I need to sift through to find which ones will provide useful information given the 20k/ 400 pixel wide limit of the image hosting on AVS (not complaining, just stating a constraint http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif .


Probably the geometry grid pattern and P561 product photos are a good candidate for a quick upload to AVS.


The movie screen shots are probably best suited to stay at 1600x1200 res for ViSR's site...

 

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I went to see the lens earlier this week and still very much wish to see it produced. It is hard to imagine what I might get in my theater envirornment with the new lens while I'm watching it with a different screen, projector envirnment, etc. at the Panamorph factory, but my initial impressions are these:


It really does jump the image brightness more than the 752 and the horizantal lines of the LCD grid virtually disappear. Color and image solidity seem stronger as well. It's like taking the advantages of the 752 and multipling x2. Also, Shawn demonstrated the linearity improvement over the 752 as well, which was nice little improvement.


On the downside, barrel distortion was noticable right away, where the 752 you might have to spend a few minutes examining before it was noticed. For me, this is a non-issue because the borders will be (are) masked making for apparent strait line borders. The added color fringing that Shawn mentioned I did not pick up on watching on his projector set up.


I am excited to see this lens get built and installed in my Home theater and I hope Shawn makes the decision to go into production soon.


Jeff

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Here's some pics of the P561 2.35 lens from the 9/15/01 ViSR Open House at the production facility in Farmington Hills, MI:


P752 on the left sans bracket, P561 on the right in front of Mits X100 clone. VT540 in the far right of image.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...pair_vt540.jpg


P561 left front quarter view, Mits X100 clone projector.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...1_left_qtr.jpg



P561 "business end"- exit prism, Mits X100 clone on the entrance side.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...usinessend.jpg


P561 entrance aperture. Blue bars are sealant for repair done to damaged prism.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...1_entrance.jpg


P561 in front of ManE's NEC VT540
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...p561_vt540.jpg



P561 with VT540, showing proximity to projector lens
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...40_topleft.jpg




[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-16-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Now that the product tour is done, image performance can be evaluated:


For movie images, YxY 1.6.0 was used to vertically stretch the image prior to projector input. WinDVD Dell OEM was used. A Mitsubishi X100 clone (XGA, 600 lumen, 1998 vintage) was projecting the images. The projector has all the desired adjustments (separate RGB brightness, contrast, and gamma) but all were at the factory default. The master brightness (combined RGB) was at -30 (-30 - +30 scale), and contrast at 0.


The screen is a painted wall, with a 2.35 shaped area taped off, about 7.5ft wide.


5th Element, P561 processed:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...5_compress.jpg



Same image, P561 moved out of the way:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...nt_stretch.jpg


Same image, P561 processed, min zoom to show edge geometry:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...ss_minzoom.jpg


Same image, P561 moved out of the way, min zoom:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...ch_minzoom.jpg


Leeloo goes for the gold medal http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...eeloo_jump.jpg


The Diva (anyone else tired of seeing her? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ):
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_uploads/diva.jpg




[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-16-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Now for some geometry test images from Avia-


I believe all these test patterns were done with the VT540 (Shawn or ManE correct me if I'm wrong).


A 1.78 anamorphic test pattern, overstretched (i.e. 33% additional vertical stretch added to the anamorphic test image) with YxY so that the P561 processed image is the correct shape:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...5_compress.jpg


Grid test pattern, also pre stretched for correct P561 processed shape
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...attern_235.jpg


Circle pattern, prestretched, P561 processed. The top-most horizontal lines exhibit the color fringing- yellow above the line, blue below- probably not visible in these low res images. Full res 1600x1200 images show the finging, to be posted elsewhere.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...ircles_235.jpg



2.35:1 test pattern, P561 processed
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...1_compress.jpg


2.35:1 test pattern, P561 moved out of the way
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/image_up...35_stretch.jpg







[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-16-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Tech details collected from prior threads from the first Panamorph open house:


An Olympus D490 2.1 Megapixel camera took all the pics, at 1600x1200 in SHQ mode (first level of compression before uncompressed TIFF mode).


Auto color balance, exposure and aperture were used, so the shutter speed varies from pic to pic. A tripod was used for stable images in the same location for the screen shots. The camera was not square to the screen due to an adjacent desk/hutch- the camera was rotated about 10 degrees CCW looking down on the camera from behind it. This may result is a small amount of additinal geometric distortion in the screen shots.


Counting the 2'x4' ceiling tiles, the projector lens was about 15' from the image on the wall.


WinDVD 2000 Dell OEM was used- I didn't get the actual version number.


A Dell Inspiron 8000 was used for progressive DVD output via DB15 VGA to the projector.


The Dell Inspiron 8000 notebook used in the P561 demo was the 1 GHz PIII model, with the NVIDIA® GeForce2 Go 32MB DDR chipset. The cool thing about the Inspiron 8000 is the standard SPDIF port for Dolby Digital and DTS output- one of the few notebooks that could possibly be a true mobile HTPC.


The Inspiron also gives you the choice of the ATI Mobility M4 or the GeForce2 Go used in the demo!



As for the color accuracy of the projector used (comparing my screen shots of 5th Element with the same image used on the AVscience home page), Shawn mentioned that the Chisholm-branded Mits X100 OEM that was demoed was not calibrated in any way. I tweaked the contrast and brightness to match what I've used for two years on the same projector (contrast at 0 on a -30 to +30 scale) and brightness at -30 on the same scale to give acceptable black level for this early model XGA projector (Mits recommended brightness for HT use).


The DB15 RGB input used means that color saturation and tint/hue adjustments are disabled- these controls on the projector are active only with composite or S-video inputs.


However, the projector has active separate R-G-B gamma adjustments and separate R-G-B brightness and R-G-B contrast controls for RGB inputs, but we didn't have the time to calibrate.


We also could have tweaked the contrast/brightness and other video parameters at the WinDVD software level or the GeForce2 GO hardware level controls, but the GeForce2 Go's overlay adjustments in the Display Properties were disabled, even with an active overlay playing (WinDVD).


Direct link to Inspiron 8000 tech details: http://www.dell.com/us/en/biz/produc...000.htm#tabtop
http://www.dell.com/us/en/biz/produc...000.htm#tabtop



Tech details on the projector used for the demo.
http://www.mitsubishi-projector.com/...nual/x100a.pdf
http://www.mitsubishi-projector.com/...nual/x100a.pdf and
http://www.mitsubishi-presentations....x100/x100.htm]
http://www.mitsubishi-presentations..../x100/x100.htm


Link to projectorcentral's tech specs of the OEM projector used, the Chisolm X650:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...cfm?part_id=19
http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...cfm?part_id=19




[This message has been edited by Rgb (edited 09-17-2001).]
 

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Quote:
I believe all these test patterns were done with the VT540 (Shawn or ManE correct me if I'm wrong).
Nope. All shots seen so far were with the Mits. This is actually good since it eliminated any difference of effect that each projector could have emparted.

Thanks for the photos!



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I would, but am not in a financial position to do so. The only two issues that I saw were (1) fringing, and (2) tearing. The fringing was surpisingly prominent on black-and-white displays. I did not notice it during the movies. I suspect that I might during the credits or similar scenarios (but I don't know that for a fact). The tearing presumably can be corrected with appropriate computer resources (though the laptop used would seem to be sufficient). I mention this as an issue because the use of YXY or a similar scaler is required to utilize the P561. Again, if I wasn't looking toward building in 1-2 years, I'd probably buy one of these too.



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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!

Our Silent Angels

Please visit The Manny Page!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
re: tearing


Yes, this was very pronounced, and of course had nothing to do with the P561.


From the specs of the notebook used, you'd think there would be minimal digital tearing artifacts.


The refresh rate was set to 60Hz, according to the Display Properties.


However, the notebook used for the demo was FAR from optimized- there were so many system tray icons and background programs running, it's amazing we were able to view any moving video at all! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


I wanted to disable many of the systray programs, but Shawn said that it was his daily work computer, so I didn't want to foul up anything he needed during normal business use.


I did manage to turn off the "Active Virus Scanning" function in the systray anti-virus app, since that could be easily turned on again. There were so many icons in the systray, that nearly the entire task bar at the screen bottom was used up across the screen with systray apps! I'm not kidding! GUI repsonse on the WinDVD app was also very slow, indicating that a lot of CPU was being used underneath. I'm typing on my primary HTPC right now, a lowly P3 733Mhz on a CUSL2 and GForce2 Ultra with no overclocking, and my system response is orders of magnitude better than the notebook used at the demo.


In the end, it wasn't the motion quality we were evaluating, but the picture quality, so I didn't make an issue about the absolute performance of the test PC. The CPU overhead shouldn't affect still images...

 

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I have one of these on order as well. Here is to hoping it ships! I'm still waiting for the 16:9 model. I ordered the end of August 2000. (Dila)


Jeff


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Jeff Streitz

Iowa City, IA
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rgb:
re: tearing


Yes, this was very pronounced, and of course had nothing to do with the P561.


From the specs of the notebook used, you'd think there would be minimal digital tearing artifacts.
It may also have had nothing to do with the HTPC, either. It used to be pretty common that projectors would exhibit tearing, even when the same image sent to a PC monitor would not. It was usually explained as an absence of "triple buffering" in the projector. Some projectors, like the Compaq MP1600 and (I think) the LT150 will tear at some refresh rates but not at others (I think 60Hz is the "tear free" refresh rate for them).


In any case, unless the laptop was showing tearing on its own LCD, the projector is where the problem was with that.
 
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