AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,769 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I do not like to provide negative feedback on anyone, especially if they are trying to build a business. Also if your product works as stated I will usually be one of the first to sing high praises.

However, something needs to be done by AVS staff regarding the Panamorph. Here's the facts.


1. Shawn has said repeatedly the product is shipping when its not.

2. If Cygnus can't provide proper information about their product or communication they should be banned from this forum(or at least not supported by AVS forum admins)

3. Cygnus stop misrepresenting your PRODUCT! It doesn't do true 16:9. Furthermore it has optical and mechanical deficiencies. Tell the customer this! I don't expect every product to work perfectly but I do expect a professional lense company to outright tell you the limitations of the product(especially with a $1000+ price tag).


I will probably be banned or censored for speaking upon this (I hope I will not on this) but this is behaviour by a company that should not be supported or tolerated.


If I was a newbie on this forum and I had purchased the panamorph last year(or this year) on the merits of AVS support, I would be feel like I was taken.


What will be done?


Unfortunately, most of the customers can't speak up (since they have purchased the panamorph) because they want their product and don't want to risk rocking the boat. I hate the thought of this desperate feeling. Secondly, this forum is the only communication link at times to the company. A solution to this problem alone would be welcomed news.



[This message has been edited by Tryg (edited 09-05-2001).]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,963 Posts
Your post will not be censored.


I agree communication is lacking on Cygnus behalf.

Theres nothing AVS can do. I have no control on how Cygnus is run.


This week is not a good week to expect any response from any manufacture because of the Cedia show. Especially from a small company.


It would be nice if Shawn would assign a staff member to keep an eye on the forum on a daily basis and respond to their customers needs.




------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
873 Posts
In high-end audio this sort of thing happens frequently. For instance, I recently purchased a very upscale French cd transport. Claims were made regarding the special quality of the spindle, reader mechanism, and digital circuitry. Furthermore, all of these pieces were claimed by the manufacturer to have been developed in house from scratch.


When mine finally arrived after several months of waiting, the unit was dead on arrival. This was not such a surprise. (Sonic Frontiers had around 75% DOA when they released their first commercial products). What was surprising was that when I went inside to see if something had come loose from shipping, the servo, spindle, reading mechanism, and digital board - essentially everything but the case and the fancy puck that clamps the disc - were identical to my $250 Parasound CDP1000. The French player goes for over $4000.


These things usually get resolved by 1) the importer drops the manufacturer, 2) the domestic manufacturer gets a negative reputation and merchandise is hard to move, 3) in either case 1 or 2 the manufacturer goes out of business and reopens under a new name.


Claims are made, marketing is produced, and we buy what in our minds we hope to be the case when it often times is not.


The quality of customer support demonstrated thus far by Cygnus (I am not a customer, thankfully) has been embarassing. That AVS continues to look the other way is curious. I know we're all hoping for the best, but Cygnus will have a hard time recovering.


I hope that members of the forum don't have a too hard a time recovering.


Kelly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,769 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger:
Your post will not be censored.

Thank you Alan!

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Tryg, I thought everyone who has ordered a Panamorph ahd already received one..


Is that not true??


 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,963 Posts
Kelly


What should I do,pull everything and kick Cygnus off the board. I will if that's what you want. Ill bet everyone would not want this.


Give us some advice on how you would handle this.


Remember I am not Cygnus and have no control on how they handle their company relationships. I have already sent complaints via email regarding support to Cygnus. I have no more power than that other than to Ban them from the forum.


I'm puzzled by your comment AVS looks the other way. I just agreed with everyone in the previous post. Did you not read it!


------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
340 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger:


I'm puzzled by your comment AVS looks the other way. I just agreed with everyone in the previous post. Did you not read it!
Alan, Kelly was obviously composing his post when you made yours. The timestamps are only one minute apart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,735 Posts
With many lenses yet to be delivered, I believe tempered tolerance is best. Many people who are just receiving lenses will need assistance that will not be provided by banning them from the forum. We all understand the frustrations. It sometimes seems like shawn is the only man over their. AVS has been the facilatator, and have been experiencing the painful motto "no good deed goes unpunished". Another motto that works is "ideas have consequences"


I am not aware that all users fail to get a 16:9 aspect ratio, but I will post the results with my D-ILA. Not to psychologize, but it appears their lack of responsiveness will cause a more exacting standard than that of comparable products. The isco produces mild geometric distortion and can be very difficulty to setup as well.


I think that your words were ones that needed to be summarized and spoken, and represent a sentiment that exists, but is infrequently expressed because of the cordial nature of the AVSforum.


Frankly, the disappearance of Cygnus URL and resurfacing at another address is not inspiring confidence. I am hoping that there will be clarification post-cedia.


------------------

STOP HDCP on DVI

Don O


[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited 09-05-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Cain,


Many of us that were on the first pre-buy from AVS have not received ours yet. I have no word as to when I should receive mine.


------------------

Jim Nissen
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
873 Posts
Alan,


As was pointed out, we composed our posts at the same time.


I think the difficult thing here, and please forgive if I'm wrong since I haven't been privy to all information since the initial offering, was that AVS seems to have a signifigant role in the process of bringing the Panamorph into existence. I think this is not inherently a bad thing, and recent developments with Dillard and Colorfacts have been seriously legitimized by the commitment of yourself and AVS to participate in their sales in the marketplace.


However, as a dealer, it is the responsibility of AVS to ensure the quality of products you are representing to your customers. Recent developments regarding Cygnus did not happen overnight. The constant delays, the good ideas regarding disclosure of progress via their website that were not followed through, and most importantly the apparent incompatability with the majority of projectors on the market, seem to me to be far from paranoia on the part of form members. Indeed, one is inclined to believe that the company or at least the project may be in jeopardy. I believe forum members can be incredibly understanding of predicaments, but only if they have some reasonable explanation made available to them. Being kept in the dark is simply unacceptable.


AVS can leverage more than any single customer or group of customers. You may have sent emails, but its been clear thus far that email goes largely unanswered at Cygnus. Perhaps that is the only means of communication that you have with Cygnus, but that would strike me as odd. Furthermore, I don't think that banning Cygnus from the forum would do much good - they don't seem to be participating anyway.


Again, I am not a customer of AVS nor am I a customer of Cygnus, so my comments hold little weight. However, I am, in some respects, a neutral party in this fiasco.


Alan, this forum is remarkable. I have been on the internet for many years, and the community that exists here at AVS is, for me at least, one of the best things I have come across on the entire web. The willingness to help one another, the good spirit and even chivalry at some times, are all things sorely missing from most community sites on the web. Whatever happens with Cygnus, I hope that it does not spoil the wonderful atmosphere that has been here as long as I have been lurking.


Kelly
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,963 Posts
Kelly everything you mention makes sense.


Lets take Cygnus as an example, AVS helped Cygnus

launch the Panamorph. All started out well.


We all know the current situation. Communication has dwindled.


In real life..

What power do I have to force Cygnus to change that I haven't all ready tried other than banning from the forum?




------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
644 Posts
Alan, I think Kelly has the idea that you are partners with Cygnus in the marketing and sale of this lens. If I remember correctly you were just brokering the deal for them on the first pre-buy, am I correct? If so I think Kelly is misdirecting his concerns.


I hate to speak for anyone on this forum, but I would think that 99.9% of the regulars here do not hold you accountable for any of the problems that Cygnus has had in delivering this lens. I would also assume that practically no one would want you to ban Shawn from posting here. Even thought his posts are infrequent, it is usually the only source of info we can get.


NickB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
873 Posts
Alan,


Its hard to keep up with all the posts, so perhaps you have already addressed the following:


1) Will the Panamorph, in its current configuration, work with projectors other than the DILA and those with a centered axis? It seems you are uniquely qualified to help resolve this outstanding question. Cygnus may wish ultimately to correct the current configuration, but it would be nice to know finally what is acheivable with the current version. If this has been determined, it would be nice to see AVS formally recognize the findings and make a recommendation to those on the pre-buy list as to possible resolutions of the predicament.


2) Assist in providing a refund to members for whom the Panamorph was represented as working with their projector, and for whom it will not work satisfactorily. In my mind the current state of affairs goes beyond reasonable risk accepted by members who partook of the prebuy. Others may have a different opinion. It is certainly the case that AVS to some extent legitimized the operation, and hopefully profits from its success. With every risk there is a downside.


Kelly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Kelly are you saying that Alan was a shill for Cygnus, or that you think they are/were partners???


I would not be angry with Alan, unless you believe one of the above scenarios.


-- Cain

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger:


In real life..

What power do I have to force Cygnus to change that I haven't all ready tried other than banning from the forum?



You could publish their phone number. It seems to be impossible to find. The only phone number I have found so far is the one used by Shawn when he registered the cgns.com domain -- and that one is answered by a fax machine. Perhaps some phone calls from disgruntled customers would induce them to post some more timely, more accurate information.


chris vandemore
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,631 Posts
Heh, I missed all the psychodrama back in July but today it seems like those wigging out were on the right track (I just paged through Mr. Wiggle's "See Ya" thread).


It's September, Cygnus is out of parts (say WHAT?), the website is down, Pannie shipments are once again delayed (surprise surprise) and there are disturbing discussions on the optical distortions on some projectors.


If I cared enough I'd run a Dunn and Bradstreet on Cygnus to see how their finances are doing...but I'm not in the mood to pony up $25 or whatever D&B is charging these days. And I'm not sure I really care to know if Cygnus is solvent or not.


Everyone does realize that they've probably spent every penny we've put in the pre-buy (and more) and that every shipping pre-buy Pannie is likely at a complete loss for the time and material to build it? I sure hope they aren't too expensive to build...or too many.


I'm still hoping by Christmas I might see mine, but who knows. Any Cygnus cashflow problems is likely to appear as delays in Panamorph shipments to pre-buys ("out of parts" anyone?).


When all is said and done, I wonder what the interest rate equivalent the pre-buy cost Cygnus. For a $2000 part sold at $600 it's pretty steep. They may have been far better off to get a loan and develop it in shop and simply given us a 20% discount for being AVS members. Odds are lots of us would have bought at $1600.


It was a nice gesture, but I'm not sure if it was good business. Far worse if we get all annoyed and Cygnus' reputation gets mauled (worse) in the process.


As far as AVS's responsibility in this, in my opinion there's probably zero legal responsibility but a whole lot of credibility/perception responsibility.


First, AVS are the experts that we trust, they have the expertise and saw the product...that the non-linearity was first disclosed by a customer and not AVS is disconcerting.


Second, I never would have invested in a pre-buy that had not received the amount of positive comments by AVS/Alan (i.e. someone I trust) present for the Pannie. For better or worse, by brokering the first pre-buy, AVS has accepted at least as much accountability for the Pannie as they would for selling any sub-standard equipment (either in performance or service).


If this thing goes further south, I doubt you can afford to wash your hands of this Alan. Statements that you are powerless won't cut it...if nothing else, you COULD issue stronger public statements of dismay over the continued inability for Cygnus to deliver a product.


You could be badgering Shawn by phone and you could provide the updates on status yourself...at least for the first pre-buy customers (which alas, I am not).


I find it hard to believe that Cygnus would be (as) cavalier in ignoring your phone calls as they might a private individual. If nothing else, AVS does have a significant net presence and tremendous positive reputation. It is by no means powerless. You control a significant bully pulpit that reaches a large number of enthusiasts.


Don't get me wrong Alan. I can certainly understand the difficulty this situation puts you in. On one hand, you want to keep good relations with Cygnus...on the other hand, it IS their fault that AVS is getting tarnished (even if only minutely) by association.


There is also always the potential danger by getting more involved that someone might try to find you legally as well as ethically accountable. A significant factor in stepping in...there's probably no question that the "smart move" is to stay as far away as folks on this forum will let you.


The question is whether AVS is willing to take the (possibly significant) risk to become the advocate for the consumer in September that it was for Cygnus in July.


Then there's always waiting. Who knows, the horse may learn to sing...


Nigel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
375 Posts
This is my first and hopefully only post on this subject.


I have to agree with kstirman on this one. As one who has been waiting since the second week of July of last year, I still with no idea of delivery (the schedule listed on the on again/off again Cygnus website has been D.O.A. for a couple of weeks). The last word on the Cygnus schedule indicates an inablility to complete the shipping to the pre-buy customers due to a parts shortage. One would assume that the number of parts needed (plus a percentage for fatalities) would have been known last year for all the pre-buy customers yet this schedule was still published knowing there was not enough parts to complete the pre-buy orders (even with the "redesign"). All I am saying is this adds to the unsung confusion and mistrust that is building out there.


And just as unfortunate, the receipt for the panny sale has AVS at the top, not Cygnus, which could leave a tarnish on this otherwise most excellent forum...


Respectively,


Thump's 2c

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,963 Posts
First off lets not get off track.


Cygnus is not guilty of anything other than being late on filling all orderers and their communication skills are lacking lately.


As mentioned don't expect any reply this week as Shawn (and every other manufacture) is at Cedia. He mentioned to us on this forum he would have a proto type with him of the 235:1 lens. He does not have a booth but makes his rounds meeting projector manufactures.



As far as AV Science involvement we provided a place for Cygnus to park its prepay.


Also I was and still am just as excited as everyone else about this product.

Shawn spent the time and money to fly in to meet with us. All was well. I do not know how much more careful someone can be.


Again product continues to ship but on a slower pace. But at least it is shipping.


As far as the panamorph not working with evey projector out there I dont think Shawn planned it that way.

Also the hype has gone way out of control.

So far it is only the Davis that has this issue. I do not know how many times Ive posted it works perfect with the dila and evey day someone is up there does it work with a dila. The unit woks fine with every unit I have tryed. Dila, Dwin, Seleco. It also works fine with the Davis if you dont mind one of 2 things, A little compression at the bottom or go with a 1.66 ratio instead of 1.78.

The Isco also does not like the Davis. The throw is very short on the Davis and only works with the isco if you zoom the image as small as possible and then you get a little cut off in the corners along with pin cusion distortion.

So you have a choice, Panomprph or Isco but both have a nagative trade off.

I do not see it as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

If I put 10 people in a room to watch the davis and Panamorph Ill bet that not one person will say the picture does not look right.

If your looking at a test pattern than you will notice it. The fault is in the projector not the lens.


For those Davis owners wanting to cancel your orders you should send an email off to Cygnus and also send a copy to myself.

I will help to make sure Shawn responds.


I will not be responding to this any more this week due to Cedia.


Cant wait to see whats new http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif




------------------

Alan Gouger

Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top