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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now just a few units away from delivery on the entire original AVS list, I want to again thank everybody for their continued support and comments. We’ve had some leaks with the first few units due to high temperatures which required a revision. We’ve also had a few breaks during shipping and one from an 8 foot drop during installation. The slide tape issue is also one that might be better resolved in the future, although the fastest solution has been to eliminate it in favor of some type of house-hold lubricant. Recent world events have also provided their share of delays getting parts in, but we expect to catch back up to the delivery schedule shortly.


As many of you know, we are currently discussing Panamorph distribution with Stewart Filmscreen. This partnership will obviously add much of the customer service and interface elements that we’ve not been able to provide as we’ve fought through the development program started by those currently with Panamorphs in hand http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif . However, even with the positive comments on image quality, brightness, etc., there remains the challenge of increasing the vertical compression linearity as viewed with a test pattern in some cases. There is also the challenge of facilitating installation with instructions applying to a wider variety of home theater scenarios. But the first is the priority.


The Panamorph was designed with a baseline native image which had an upper edge at the level of the projection lens. With this configuration, the image would have little distortion other than slight barreling at the edges and also slight non-linearity in the vertical direction per the distortion image posted on the forum last November. Since shipping, some projector setups resulted in even greater non-linearity to the point that the exact aspect ratio was sacrificed for an acceptable geometry. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get a feel for the exact setups in these cases, but my thanks to those with similar projectors who helped out. I especially appreciate REFs post on getting a very nice image with the Davis 450. There are others I am working with directly on installation in a variety of circumstances, and I expect they’ll provide feedback as they complete their final adjustments.


I’ve updated the Panamorph web page with more of a white paper description of its operation, but here’s my thought on the issues with some setups. The correct aspect ratio can be achieved with all projectors through Panamorph tilt. Further, by modifying the image offset either with lens shift or by projector tilt, the correct aspect ratio image can also be located at a desired vertical location. That said, if a projector places the image significantly below the lens AND if the Panamorph is used to create the correct aspect ratio without tilting the projector upward, the resultant image will have a greater vertical non-linearity than a projector with the native image top at lens level. The setup solution for this problem is to lens-shift the image up or point the projector up to where there is a balance of keystoning and non-linearity. The third variable is the aspect ratio, which can be left short of ideal to also support better linearity. In any case, the conclusion is that the further a native image is below the projection lens, the more difficult it is find a good balance. Adding to this dilemma is the case where a 16:9 projection screen is already fixed below the lens so that image height is no longer flexible. So while these scenarios support a clear, 16:9 image, they are more limited in how well the vertical linearity can be tuned.


Ultimately, the goal of a solution is to allow a greater degree of adjustment flexibility for all scenarios. The fact is that there are many different parameters that make up each home theater installation and each person may consider different image characteristics as the priority. In response to this, the thought is to offer a different Panamorph model – the P752Pro. The standard setting of this model provides imaging characteristics identical to the P752. However, it has an adjustable front prism angle which provides this flexibility for user preferences.


I don’t know what the interest level in the P752Pro will be. We’ve had a relatively small number of cases where the additional adjustment would have clearly helped, but the additional ability to tweak may be of interest to more. In any case, the P752Pro represents a slightly different design based on the established Panamorph manufacturing approach. If there is sufficient interest, existing customers (only) can switch to the P752Pro for $350 to support this manufacturing operation. We’ll run a program through Sunday to see what the interest level is and then post the results if it’s a go. There’s more info on the Panamorph page which can be accessed either at www.cgns.com or www.visr.com.


Kind regards,



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Shawn Kelly

Cygnus Imaging
www.cgns.com
 

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Shawn,


***

What is your timeframe for those who purchased the P752 to make a decision about the Pro upgrade? My concern is since I haven't received the P752 yet, I am unable to determine whether the Pro will be necessary for my installation.

***


Ooops just saw your timeframe through Sunday.


I guess then take this as input that Sunday will not be sufficient for me to make a decision since I do not have my P752 yet. However, if installation is a problem, I would be interested.


What is your estimation of when a Pro could be delivered to the market?


--Les


[This message has been edited by arrow (edited 09-18-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Kelly:
can switch to the P752Pro for $350 to support this manufacturing operation.

gong

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Les, good question! My first thought is that perhaps we'd also offer it for a limited time after each person receives their P752, but only if we end up going into production on the P752Pro due to initial interest anyway.


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Shawn Kelly

Cygnus Imaging
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Hey gong,

thanks for the valuable monosyllabic contribution. It contributed greatly to Shawn's original post. I will be bookmarking this thread for future reference. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Don O
 

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Shawn, the $350.00 U.S. translates into over $600.00 Canadian including tax so I would rather not get the pro unit. My LT150 is floor mounted and I can stand both it and myself on our heads if I have to - will it work is my question! Does the pro offer anything that I can't do with the P752 (I can raise or lower it or the projector or both or change angles, if I have to)?


Cheers,


Grant

 

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I thought Phat was working closely with you, and was able to take the regular P752 and get a very nice image with the Davis. He was going to provide more info, but I don't think he ever did.


Is there a thread which talks about the current "best picture" that can be achieved with a non edge-aligned projector (e.g. Davis) with the current Panamorph?


Mike



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As for my contribution... I have been playing pretty hard with this thing (much to my GF's distress) and as it requires a full remount of the projector I was trying every thing and position I could find...


In one position I could get the non linear down to a very marginal effect but had some pretty strong keystone... My room does not have enough vertical height to remount the projector in a keystone inducing setup to eliminate (I need more playtime) so I am trying some compromises... So far nothing is perfect but I have to say that the non linear distortion looks obvious on a circles pattern but hard to see with just squares and pretty invisible with video sources... I know this is a bit of a turnaround from my earlier disparaging comments but now I have it in front of me I could live with it...


If a P752Pro totally fixes this issue for exact 16:9 compression without keystone then I will go for it so that any projector I may own will be compatible but it must be 100% not nearly... I would also like to see that the pass through option of a 'Pro' still leaves the 4:3 in approx the screen area as my tests now (to achieve a 16:9 etc) are way way off and I did want this for PC gaming...


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With my projector, the bottom of the image is even with the projector lens, so I don't think the P752Pro would be worth it for me. Yes I can see some vertical non-linearity with a test pattern, but I really don't notice it at all with video.


So, I'm not interested in the P752Pro, but I have pre-ordered a 2.35 Panamorph. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I am very hopeful the 2.35 lens will become a reality. I was actually suprised when I did the math and discovered that 60% of my dvd collection is 2.35 ratio movies, while only 29% are 1.85.


Ben
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Phat Phreddy:
In one position I could get the non linear down to a very marginal effect but had some pretty strong keystone... My room does not have enough vertical height to remount the projector in a keystone inducing setup to eliminate
Are you saying that if you could raise your projector (or lower your screen) that you could have a pretty much perfect image? What needs to be done to eliminate the keystone? Do you know how much drop you would need? How much drop do you have now, what's your screen width, and your throw distance?


What did you need to do to get a good image? I'm guessing that the Panamorph should be tilted downward slightly, and maybe even be a touch lower, when matched with a ceiling mounted Davis (or other non-edge-aligned projector).


Also, how close does the Panamorph need to be to the Davis lens? Does it have to be practically touching? Can it be 6 inches away?


Mike





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The variables involved in Pannie adjustment are really hard to explain as there is a lot at play... I fond that a severe down tilt on the PJ and then adjusting this for 1.78 with the Pannie made a good image in distortion terms but gave me a lot of keystone... Plus the pass though became impossible (I could live without this but would like it)...


Once I started to actually mount this to get it permanent I messed the setting up and now have more linear distortion and less keystone...


Lots of variables here which can effect the situation and produce barreling and also a lack of focus at one edge (when the angle of intersection was heavy and the image was too far to the edge of the Pannie)... I have high hopes that my next attempt at playing with this (probably Tuesday) will get better as I think inverting the Pannie in relation to the PJ should help...


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Quote:
Originally posted by gongshow:
gong

I second that emotion.


$350 to fix a broken product that is a year late?


I'm in the wrong line of work, is all I can say.



I bet this $350 "upgrade" charge is going to bring out the refund requests, big time.





[This message has been edited by rickforrest (edited 09-19-2001).]
 

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Severe *downward* tilt on the projector? Is this table-top mounted, and not ceiling? I'd think for ceiling mounted, you'd tilt the projector up...


If you keep the projector level, and just tilt the panamorph down, does that give good linearity? What about keystoning?


What variables are there? It seems like it's just projector tilt, panamorph tilt, and maybe panamorph height...


You seemed to imply in your previous post that you thought you could eliminate the keystone without sacrificing linearity, except your room wouldn't allow it. Could you please describe? Oh, are you saying that you're getting barreling (the opposite of keystoning), so if you're screen was lower, or your projector higher, than the keystoning and barreling might cancel out?


Mike



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Shawn, my understanding is that there is a 30-day return guarantee on the Panamorph. Could you please confirm that this is correct. If it is, I assume that people be able to try the Panamorph they have on order, and then either return it if they were not satisfied, or return it for the Pro version at the extra cost of $350?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Lemke:
This is not a broken product. It works just fine for the bulk of the customers. You cannot fault cygnus for constantly improving the product. Do you think Sony will give an 11HT to the 10HT owners because the 10HT is not as good?

Comparing Sony to Cygnus, comparing a 10HT (which works with ALL dvd players I believe) to a P752 (which only works with on-axis projectors), is uh, a bit of a stretch.


Say you're a Davis projector owner. You paid $600 over a year ago for the P752. Now you're being asked for $350 more (over 50% of what you paid originally) so that it works with your projector.


I don't think the comparison to the 10HT is valid at all.
 

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PhatPhreddy - how high is your ceiling? How high is your screen? In other words, when you had it on the floor, how much of a height difference was there from the lens to the screen edge? Like 2 feet? How much of a height difference do you need for no keystone without the Panamorph? I'd think the Panamorph would increase the height difference required by about a foot...


What's your throw distance? And what's your screen width?


Mike



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Quote:
Originally posted by rickforrest:
Say you're a Davis projector owner
Which I am! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


I'm just trying to figure out exactly what the issue is. It seems like PhatPhreddy is implying that there might not really be an issue... We've had a couple of people (I think FerretLover) say it didn't work well. Can anyone who has tried the Panamorph with a Davis and seen it *not* work well, can you chime in here? Do you disagree with anything PhatPhreddy has said?


The one thing that bothers me is that Shawn has said that it was designed for edge-aligned projectors, and this was never disclosed anywhere. If you bought from Shawn, you can always get a refund - that doesn't help me, who bought in the secondary market... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Mike




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Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn Kelly:
The Panamorph was designed with a baseline native image which had an upper edge at the level of the projection lens. With this configuration, the image would have little distortion other than slight barreling at the edges and also slight non-linearity in the vertical direction per the distortion image posted on the forum last November. Since shipping, some projector setups resulted in even greater non-linearity to the point that the exact aspect ratio was sacrificed for an acceptable geometry.
The fact that this was designed for aligned projectors was not mentioned in the original design discussions of last year. We expected to get a very low distortion image lens. In fact I recall that cost and low distortion were major selling points last year as compared to the ISCO (July and August).


I did a search for the original Panamorph discussions that were over a year ago and some interesting reading is in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Archives...10-003349.html


Shawn shows a theoretical black and white grid from a Panamorph to show the slight barrel distortion that the panamorph will have, and he states that the distortion will be equal to or less than the ISCO. In that figure there is clearly no vertical non-linearity. Note that the barrel distortion that he shows is insignificant to the non-linear compression that is evident now (from pictures that have been posted). The original design that most of us bought into over a year ago clearly did not have vertical compression non-linearities. It was also not sold as being applicable to only aligned projectors.


We bought in on a product that was to produce an image similar to that shown in Shawn's post of 11-13-2000 11:19 PM in thread: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Archives...10-003349.html


Clearly for a large number of projectors we will get an image that is significantly distorted when compared to that shown in Shawn's post.


Cygnus has a solution to this problem yet they want to charge extra for a new product. This new product will be the first and only product that they have made which will produce an image similar to what we paid for over a year ago.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Lemke:
This is not a broken product. It works just fine for the bulk of the customers. You cannot fault cygnus for constantly improving the product. Do you think Sony will give an 11HT to the 10HT owners because the 10HT is not as good?

As most of the projectors owned by members of this forum have an offset and from all accounts will have distortion, I would call it broken. It is broken in the sense that it does not meet the performance criteria (very low distortion)that was advertised at the onset, and that we all paid for.




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STOP DVI/HDCP!

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Isn't it true that many changes not part of the original design were incorporated at no charge (e.g. rail system, black anodized aluminum - well, just the whole way the lens was constructed)? But now a change that sounds like it just allows additional adjustment (doesn't sound like Shawn's marginal cost will increase much, if at all) such that distortion will be improved on most projectors is extra?


Can I trade my rail system and snazzy black casing for these additional adjustment capabilities?


Mike



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I'll stick with the original P752. My projector is edge-aligned and I estimate no further than a 3 degree up-tilt, so I should be ok. If there are other issues that come up after installation, I'll deal with them then.

For now, I just want my Panny already http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/mad.gif and would not even consider adding further delays! Thanks.


Carey
 
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