[ClarkeBar]

I'm sure con219 will be along soon to whistle another tune past the graveyard.

I just don't get this denial crap. All manufacturers have issues. Pick your poison...and hope there's an antidote coming somewhere down the line for whatever ails the set. That's life in the current disposable/upgrade environment.

 

[starcrunch]

Ugghh! My old TV finally died last night and I'm suddenly in the market (got to have one by the australian GP this weekend). After spending the afternoon starring at TV in stores I really liked the TC-P42U2 (great image for my price range) and thought I found my set. Then doing the research I find this issue (haven't had time to read this whole thread!). Now I'm stuck in the TV decision hell again.

 

[ClarkeBar]

It's worse. Now there's floating blacks as well. I'm sure Panny would say that blacks that rise, by intention mind you, should also float. Now that would be something Rube Goldberg would be proud of...


What sets are available to you in the price range?

 

[wrinklefree]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree /forum/post/18358307


Plasma fans should head over to Twit.tv to hear the live broadcast of Home Theater Geeks. Todays guest is Pioneer's former plasma guru Josh Kairoff.


Josh theorizes about Panasonic's black level issue.


Link is here: http://live.twit.tv/

For those who missed the podcast, its now posted at : http://twit.tv/htg13


EDIT: Wow I missed the part about how Panasonic (could have) predicted most of its users were on torch mode and designed its compensation circuits accordingly.

 

[CHUCKCHILLOUT]

AV forums calls them dodgy blacks.

, I don't know why I think it's so funny, but it is!

 

[reszound]

I have a theory re the burn in - sorry if it's already been mentioned elsewhere already. I'm on an electronics roll at the moment. I spend all day everyday working on a 24" imac and after 18 months the screen has just started developing severe IR. It's a known problem and it's caused by heat - those things cook when they run for hours at a time and it ends up frying the screen.


Anyway, the IR on the mac looks exactly like what I had on the plasma last night - surely this could be caused by this increase in voltage raising the cell/phosphor temperatures past normal tolerances? If so, surely this is a manufacturing defect? I know I'm comparing an LCD screen to a plasma here but heat and electronics are never the happiest of combinations...


The mac is booked in for a new screen (under warranty - no questions asked), I'm not sure I'd get the same response from panasonic just at the moment...

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree /forum/post/18367677


For those who missed the podcast, its now posted at : http://twit.tv/htg13


EDIT: Wow I missed the part about how Panasonic (could have) predicted most of its users were on torch mode and designed its compensation circuits accordingly.

very interesting listen and it does coincide with what i've been thinking about this whole issue and that is that this problem has come about because panasonic screwed up and made this increase happen too much too soon for users with calibrated sets.


Josh Kairoff when asked about the voltage adjustment in that segment went on to say that Pioneer even implements this adjustment in their Plasma's but they took a very long time testing how this works and needs to be adjusted and did the best they could to make it happen seamlessly because as he said in that interview over time as the phosphors wear without adjusting the drive voltage the blacks get even blacker but the color also gets turned out of whack due to the aging differences between the 3 color phosphors and this is the main reason why the adjustment is needed to begin with.


he also speculated that Panasonic discovered this problem before it became public here on AVS and took steps to adjust it to be more seamless and that would explain why the newer 58"+ models do not suffer from the same sudden increases as the smaller older models did.


all this being said at least Panasonic's fessed up to the problem. we don't see Samsung, Sony or any other major TV maker fessing up to the input lag problem on their TV's even though its well documented on these forums as well as other review sites. its really one in the same thing but it actually more wide spread and manufactures that produce really offensively laggy TV's do not want to admit to it or have it be publicly known or rated on their TV's because it would damage their sales

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18368006


......Josh Kairoff when asked about the voltage adjustment in that segment went on to say that Pioneer even implements this adjustment in their Plasma's but they took a very long time testing how this works and needs to be adjusted and did the best they could to make it happen seamlessly because as he said in that interview over time as the phosphors wear without adjusting the drive voltage the blacks get even blacker but the color also gets turned out of whack due to the aging differences between the 3 color phosphors and this is the main reason why the adjustment is needed to begin with.

Yeah, owners on the Kuro threads (I also have one of those) have commented that the blacks get even better over time, but I haven't seen any comments about the color accuracy getting worse over time. I'm wondering if that could be fixed by simply adjusting the tint control.

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wrinklefree /forum/post/18367677


For those who missed the podcast, its now posted at : http://twit.tv/htg13

That's an hour long, what part of it talks about this issue?

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. /forum/post/18368039


Yeah, owners on the Kuro threads (I also have one of those) have commented that the blacks get even better over time, but I haven't seen any comments about the color accuracy getting worse over time. I'm wondering if that could be fixed by simply adjusting the tint control.

Well according to Josh Kairoff he implied that the early Plasma's did not make this adjustment but the mid to later generation Pioneer's employed the voltage rise adjustment in such a way that it would be pretty much un-noticeable to the end user, therefore being seamless.


what i've suspected is that with the black risen Panasonic's once they have had their phosphors age more their blacks will slowly drop back down to pre-rise levels. i drew this conclusion simply from viewing store models that had 3k+ hours on them and did not appear to have much lighter blacks than my own 50X1 plasma that had at the time less than 400 hours on it, its now over 400 hours and still looks great with no real noticeable increase in blacks. it is however manufactured in December 2009 so it is also a possibility that Panasonic had already adjusted the rise issue on my model before mine was made of course.



Josh also stated that he thinks Panasonic made those timed voltage increases happen based under the assumption that most users would never take the TV out of its default picture mode that reduces phosphor wear when calibrated so they made it happen based on testing the TV's in the default mode rather than every possible situation.

 

[frito]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. /forum/post/18368043


That's an hour long, what part of it talks about this issue?

the part talking about the issue is pretty early on but honestly after listening to the whole thing all the way through you should listen to it all, he goes pretty in depth on quite a few aspects of Plasma's and how they work and there is a second part where he explains the voltage rise in plasma's in more detail somewhere in the middle of the interview

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by frito /forum/post/18368064


the part talking about the issue is pretty early on but honestly after listening to the whole thing all the way through you should listen to it all, he goes pretty in depth on quite a few aspects of Plasma's and how they work and there is a second part where he explains the voltage rise in plasma's in more detail somewhere in the middle of the interview

Thanks, I browsed it and found that it started at about the 6 minute mark. (Wow, sounds like Stephen Hawking talking.

The host sounds perfect but that other guy talking is very hard to make out).


Am I to understand this problem is less prevalent with those that don't use torch mode? Or those who's sets are not calibrated?

 

[deadstar55]



Quote:
Originally Posted by reszound /forum/post/18365777


I'm now between 500 and 1000 hours on my 50G10A. Blacks have been bright grey for about a month now, and sure enough, it's now developing major IR - my wife even pointed it out to me. This is worrying as it's getting worse pretty quickly and I'm coming up on the next rise point. It's actually getting close to becoming unwatchable for movies in near or total darkness - especially anything dark, like sci-fi movies with lots of space shots. Blazingly bright grey bars end up burned into the screen and so called 'blacks' are bright grey and look terrible. I can still get away with watching it in a 1/4 lit room - for now.

reszound I'm from Australia also. My 50V10 has a little over 1500 hrs and it mirrors the problems of your G10.

I first noticed greying black and severe IR around the 1000 hr mark.


I'm going steadily down the Tech path with a new A board, to be followed by a SC and an SS board.


The independant techs working for Panasonic have stated they haven't seen IR this bad on a flat panel.


I'm not mentioning the Rising Blacks specifically, as Pana Australia DON'T want to know about it. " within specs and all that dribble"


Thanks for The ACCC number, I hope I don't have to go down that road.

I'll keep you updated as to my outcome.


Thanks wrinklefree for posting link to the live broadcast of Home Theater Geeks with Josh Kairoff.

It re-enforced a lot of what you guys here have concluded. And he seemed to have a respect for AVS and its members.

 

[lcaillo]

I have not seen significant IR in the Panasonics but I don't get a lot of them in for service. It is not uncommon to see it in other panels that may need some alignment. I saw it in a LG last week that was easily adjusted out by correcting the timing and voltages of the panel drive waveform. Unfortunately, in attempts to dumb down the repair process, lots of techs and vendor tech support don't even know how to align a set, if there are even adjustments available. At the last class from Panasonic that I took, there was little discussion of troubleshooting at much beyond the level of board swapping.

 

[Retty]



Quote:
Originally Posted by deadstar55 /forum/post/18368113

reszound I'm from Australia also. My 50V10 has a little over 1500 hrs and it mirrors the problems of your G10.

I first noticed greying black and severe IR around the 1000 hr mark.


I'm going steadily down the Tech path with a new A board, to be followed by a SC and an SS board.


The independant techs working for Panasonic have stated they haven't seen IR this bad on a flat panel.


I'm not mentioning the Rising Blacks specifically, as Pana Australia DON'T want to know about it. " within specs and all that dribble"

Sure, but the point is that it doesn't seem to be within specs.


What's the advertised/documented contrast ratio for these sets and what is the actual measured contrast ratio following the raised black level?

 

[jackal2001]



Quote:
Originally Posted by deadstar55 /forum/post/18368113

reszound I'm from Australia also. My 50V10 has a little over 1500 hrs and it mirrors the problems of your G10.

I first noticed greying black and severe IR around the 1000 hr mark.


I'm going steadily down the Tech path with a new A board, to be followed by a SC and an SS board.


The independant techs working for Panasonic have stated they haven't seen IR this bad on a flat panel.


I'm not mentioning the Rising Blacks specifically, as Pana Australia DON'T want to know about it. " within specs and all that dribble"


Thanks for The ACCC number, I hope I don't have to go down that road.

I'll keep you updated as to my outcome.


Thanks wrinklefree for posting link to the live broadcast of Home Theater Geeks with Josh Kairoff.

It re-enforced a lot of what you guys here have concluded. And he seemed to have a respect for AVS and its members.

I would caution you against going with a new a-board. I have the highest recorded BL and I am wondering if it has something to do with the aboard replacement. If they TV thinks it has a certain number of hours on it and then a part is replaced that has 0 hours on it, the voltage may continue to drive upwards. This was stated in that podcast as well. There is no way to do a reset on the entire tv to tell it to start all counters at 0 again. The only thing I could find online was an S1 service manual, just looking for something in there about resetting counters after a part was replaced and there was nothing.

 

[mustangs1]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal2001 /forum/post/18368381


I would caution you against going with a new a-board. I have the highest recorded BL and I am wondering if it has something to do with the aboard replacement. If they TV thinks it has a certain number of hours on it and then a part is replaced that has 0 hours on it, the voltage may continue to drive upwards. This was stated in that podcast as well. There is no way to do a reset on the entire tv to tell it to start all counters at 0 again. The only thing I could find online was an S1 service manual, just looking for something in there about resetting counters after a part was replaced and there was nothing.

Can you give me a link to the Service Manual??


thanks

 

[deadstar55]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Retty /forum/post/18368344


Sure, but the point is that it doesn't seem to be within specs.

My point was that Panasonic have said its not a problem, and their Service Dept warned me that the supposed rising blacks were purely speculation by forum members and that if I called for technical service on that basis and the technician concluded as they believe, it is NOT a problem, I will charged $145.00 plus $25.00 for each 10 minutes the techie is in attendance.


Hence... as they do not accept there is a problem, and I want my $3000.00 TV fixed, that's the route I'm taking, otherwise I just sit on my hands and nothing happens.

jackal2001 the A board has already been replaced.( no difference noted) ... I had no say in rejecting it.


I have severe IR and the Techies recognise that, so if the A, SS and SC boards don't help, I'm told I should get a new panel.


At least it's in the system with an acknowledged fault.

Just don't mention the war!!! and eventually I may get a result.. who knows?

 

[mikey24]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. /forum/post/18368043


That's an hour long, what part of it talks about this issue?

To make a long story short, he pretty much said that Panasonic ****ed up.


He said they made too coarse of an adjustment to help the phosphors age in a way that the picture looks consistent over time. Pioneer also has such voltage adjustments, but they're so gradual and mild that you won't notice anything like a rise in black levels. He said Panasonic used a heavy hand and went overboard with the voltage adjustments. Apparently Pioneer engineers make Panasonic engineers look like buffoons.


The conversation is almost half way through the podcast.

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey24 /forum/post/18368466


To make a long story short, he pretty much said that Panasonic ****ed up.


He said they made too coarse of an adjustment to help the phosphors age in a way that the picture looks consistent over time. Pioneer also has such voltage adjustments, but they're so gradual and mild that you won't notice anything like a rise in black levels. He said Panasonic used a heavy hand and went overboard with the voltage adjustments. Apparently Pioneer engineers make Panasonic engineers look like buffoons.


The conversation is almost half way through the podcast.

See my post #7252 above.