[BenJF3]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood /forum/post/18388498


Is the bottom line of this whole fiasco to just wait until 2011 for a decent Panasonic Plasma?

Maybe, but I just looked at the G25 and G20 lines an they don't have a set over 54" - I'm looking for a 65" (at bare minimum 58") because I'm coming from a 90" front projection screen. I too, was sold on a V10 65" and about to get one for around $3K when I found this thread. I love the pic on Panny Plasmas and have done a few installs of Panny Plasmas over the past two years for people. The most recent was a 50S1 and no problems yet. I just don't want to make a $3K boo boo. Philips is pretty much crap and I've yet to see a Sammy I like (just never did like them from when I was a service tech). Plus Sammy and Philips use the same panels. Hell, I've seen them factory installed upside down. I don't think Panny Plasmas are going anywhere with the Kuro Tech and massive investment in the panel plant they recently opened , but this issue is really a black eye on them. I may be looking at an LED model, but my personal preference is plasma because of better blacks, better motion response and overall better image. Phosphor based displays just look more natural to me. I guess I will be watching this closely.


If I purchase the V10 65", I'll likely add an extended warranty in case it develops issues.

 

[Panaman88]

This post is a carry over from another tread but anyway I just thought I'd throw it out there--

CRT:

- Shadow detail may be lacking on most displays when set to 'true' black.



From my experience, after a few days of testing for several hours you are spot on with this statement. In order for me to retain my deepest inkest blacks on my CRT, I have learned there is a sacrifice to be made which is shadow detail. Sure my Panny may not have the deepest of deep blacks but it outweights the shadow detail of the Sony CRT by far in my opinion. Unless of course I bump up the brightness on the Sony and then you start seeing a glow and some grayish blacks in certain scenes as well.


So what good is deep blacks if it destroys the background detail. While I have very little hands on experience with a Kuro I read (somewhere)it losses some shadow detail as well from a result of it's deep blacks. And if and when Panny reaches Kuro black levels I think it will be hard to find the perfect mix of the two. Maybe someday we can have our cake and eat it too, but as for now it is what it is.

 

[Panaman88]

With all due respect to the members here at AVS, I have to wonder at this point how many people would have ever noticed their black levels had it not been pointed out by Orta. I feel there were so many people happy with their TV's until they discovered this thread. The 11g owners really make me suspicious. Almost 2 years of ownership and they start popping up everywhere with Black level problems, I would assume those sets most likely have already reached their Black level peaks.


I'm not trying to discredit the folks who are really suffering from Pannys flawed blacks but rather curious about Individuals being able to detect their own black Level increase without any help

 

[Panaman88]



Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit /forum/post/18391315


anthrojohn posted evidence of a rise in his 42" G15 after 146 hours. I posted the rise on my 50" V10 happening somewhere between the 120 and 160 hour marks.

No idea if they differ based on model but we are running two different G12 models in different parts of the world and the shift is of similar timing (if not identical).


That small amount of time is not a hell of a lot. It would be very easy for people to miss the first rise. If you've only just finished running break-in slides, haven't calibrated the TV and settled into normal viewing patterns it could be too late to even notice the first rise.

True, very true. I think I fit into the crowd that missed the first rise. It just strikes me as strange why I can't see a difference in overall PQ from the original purchase date. Maybe my eyes are starting to give way, who knows

 

[mi16]

Hi, I just logged in. I'm a 42G10 owner from Europe and came here after reading the CNET articles

I didn't want to read all the 250 pages so I read the OP and referenced patents. Then I listened the Pioneer guru podcast. Had time because of a little cold...


Now sorry if this has been handled already, but here is my quick conclusion what the design flaw at Panasonic might have been:


In product development, you always need to worry about worst-case scenarios. The worst-case scenario in plasma aging is a less-caring consumer who runs his panel all the time in Dynamic mode (Vivid in US?) with contrast all the way up (this may also be the case in store mode). In order to ensure that his panel won't misfire, Panasonic has determined and implemented the power-on accumulated time voltage rises heavy-handedly as Pioneer guru speculates.


These voltage rises might then be too much for a panel that is calibrated and watched with care. In such case the cells have not had a chance to produce as much light and heat as in torch mode and thus don't have aged quickly enough to comply with heavy-handed voltage rises. Adding voltage just based on power-on accumulated time sounds stupid, as other parameters affect on aging too. But these are consumer-grade tv's, not enthusiast panels.


This might explain why the problem is especially well observed among enthusiasts. And explain how Panasonic has been able to offer CNET a possibility to view aged and new panels side-by-side: Panasonic has perhaps just aged their sample in torch mode and the black level could very well be ok in that case. Same goes for the G20Fan's store unit observation.


If the problem really is this, fixing it is impossible for Panasonic: they would need to test all panels somehow because their current firmware has probably no idea how aged the cells actually are - a simple firmware update that fits to every case wouldn't do.


So here's my question: Should we forget calibrated settings and such and run the plasmas at high contrast focusing more on content than technology?

Just my two cents

I might be completely wrong but perhaps you people can tell me...


Oh and my G10 has around 450 hours on it. Never calibrated and quite bright settings. To me it seems that black levels are same as always, but they appear to deviate with higher frequency i.e. they usually get better after few hours of power-on.

 

[dabigwaxy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18391609


With all due respect to the members here at AVS, I have to wonder at this point how many people would have ever noticed their black levels had it not been pointed out by Orta. I feel there were so many people happy with their TV's until they discovered this thread. The 11g owners really make me suspicious. Almost 2 years of ownership and they start popping up everywhere with Black level problems, I would assume those sets most likely have already reached their Black level peaks.


I'm not trying to discredit the folks who are really suffering from Pannys flawed blacks but rather curious about Individuals being able to detect their own black Level increase without any help

I hear what you are saying. This is ALL Orta's fault. Let's get him!

 

[kotlec]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18391609


The 11g owners really make me suspicious. Almost 2 years of ownership and they start popping up everywhere with Black level problems, I would assume those sets most likely have already reached their Black level peaks.

1. I am one with 11g. Noticed rised blacks long before this thread, but thought its being isolated failure.

2. This thread exists not to assure somebody who is suspicious on something but rather to find solution and help each other.

 

[bazlog]



Quote:
Originally Posted by paulr2006 /forum/post/18391449


not really, a friend over on avforums had a g10 which was absolutely fine up to around 3000 hours which has now just transformed.

+1

 

[lcaillo]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that electronics, including PDPs can change over time, and this may not happen identically in all devices even in the same model. That is why we fix things. Just because someone somewhere sees a difference over time does not mean that it is related to the issue in this thread. The set might need repair or it might need calibration.


PDPs do change performance with time. That is why Panasonic and others program compensation into the sets sometimes. Sometimes the assumptions are good ones sometimes not.

 

[Panaman88]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Europe use a different Voltage settings on their electronics as opposed to the U.S. I apologize for being so vague, but anyway what I'm getting at is that this may be why it's taking the Panny panels longer to reach the increases in that part of the world. And I say this because it seems less people seem to be noticing it over there.

 

[greenland]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18391619


True, very true. I think I fit into the crowd that missed the first rise. It just strikes me as strange why I can't see a difference in overall PQ from the original purchase date. Maybe my eyes are starting to give way, who knows

It is of no importance what you claim to not notice. What is important is the fact that Panasonic informed Cnet, in writing, that they programmed the MLL, in their 2009 models, to rise too aggressively.


They did not manufacture a magic set, that it will not happen to, just for you.

 

[Panaman88]



Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland /forum/post/18391899


It is of no importance what you claim to not notice. What is important is the fact that Panasonic informed Cnet, in writing, that they programmed the MLL, in their 2009 models, to rise too aggressively.


They did not manufacture a magic set, that it will not happen to, just for you.

Greenland, I have never claimed that my set had no rise in black levels as I've stated numerous times, I'm sure it does. I simply said I can't really see it and the overall PQ looks the same as when originally purchased.

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo /forum/post/18391848


Why is it so hard for people to understand that electronics, including PDPs can change over time, and this may not happen identically in all devices even in the same model. That is why we fix things.

Not only that, but having repaired electronics since the mid '70's, most may not know that identical "anythings" can have different semiconductor components on their PCB's for the exact same locations. A chip or cap in one location on a device may be a Samsung, and that exact same location on another identical device may have NEC, Motorola, Fairchild, etc., etc. Although they cross-ref and "usually" have the same basic specs, there can be big differences in quality and tolerances between these different brands of semiconductors.


It's possible something like that may be happening here with regards to some noticing this problem and some not.

 

[Audiotitis]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18391609


With all due respect to the members here at AVS, I have to wonder at this point how many people would have ever noticed their black levels had it not been pointed out by Orta. I feel there were so many people happy with their TV's until they discovered this thread. The 11g owners really make me suspicious. Almost 2 years of ownership and they start popping up everywhere with Black level problems, I would assume those sets most likely have already reached their Black level peaks.


I'm not trying to discredit the folks who are really suffering from Pannys flawed blacks but rather curious about Individuals being able to detect their own black Level increase without any help

I am one of them because I never watched the set in the dark, coming from an LCD. Now that THX works well, I do at times. In the dark, the black rise on a completely black screen (like when there is a blank black frame say in TV pgming after an ad runs and a pgm resumes, credits, etc) should be very noticeable to anyone who watches in complete darkness and has been admiring their dark screens when such frames came up.


To answer your other post, the settings on your TV OTB and now after tweaks are one factor. The 2nd one is they were done at diff timelines. Why do people bring up this argument - it always puzzles me as its subjective. If you put YOUR set at 200 hrs versus YOUR set at 1500+ hrs with the right content (where contrast shows more) and tweak (calibrate) both sets to their optimum, YOU would see a difference. Its like thinking you have the best TV till the next years model shows up next to yours and you can then SEE the diff side by side. From memory, you would not be able to tell the diff.

 

[Camster]



Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Highlander /forum/post/18390964


Was at Futureshop today, the G25's are out and saw 42/46/50 inch, they should just give you one of those for all your troubles.


Hope you get this sorted and just wanted to let you know that they do have them in the Kitchener area.

Yeah thanks it hasn't been a fun exercise for me honestly. I'm in Eastern Ontario & am dealing with a different store chain who say it should be coming in around April 4th so it's getting close. It's good to know they are popping up in Canada finally. I expect FS is selling the G25's to limit price matching with most stores selling the G20's. I know they did that with the G15's.


I wouldn't wish this on anyone. They honour their Warranty but actual customer service is non-existent. They didn't care that I just wanted a properly working same or equivalent tv.

 

[Clint S.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panaman88 /forum/post/18391600


From my experience, after a few days of testing for several hours you are spot on with this statement. In order for me to retain my deepest inkest blacks on my CRT, I have learned there is a sacrifice to be made which is shadow detail. Sure my Panny may not have the deepest of deep blacks but it outweights the shadow detail of the Sony CRT by far in my opinion. Unless of course I bump up the brightness on the Sony and then you start seeing a glow and some grayish blacks in certain scenes as well.


So what good is deep blacks if it destroys the background detail. While I have very little hands on experience with a Kuro I read (somewhere) it losses some shadow detail as well from a result of it's deep blacks. And if and when Panny reaches Kuro black levels I think it will be hard to find the perfect mix of the two. Maybe someday we can have our cake and eat it too, but as for now it is what it is.

My actual TV is Kuro 5020, and I never noticed any lack of detail in shadows, which is something I hate. I hate to see a black/darker area of a screen that's totally void of detail. With the Kuro, when I hooked it up for the first time, I was struck and blown away by how incredible the detail was even in black areas. I remember looking at one of the AM shows (GMA or similar), and someone on the couch was wearing a black suit. It was really black, yet I could actually see the threads and fabric details, and thread on the buttons, even on parts where the studio lights were casting significant dark shadows. I tend to not like a lot of contrast (because that generally harms details in shadows), so lowering the contrast can help. But with the Kuro I can bump the contrast up higher than I did on CRT's and other HDTV's and still see the detail.


The G15 is almost the same way from what I've seen. It has comparable blacks and black detail, but it's not quite as sharp and detailed overall. I almost got another 5020 for my Dad, but I got the G15 instead, since he's 75 and can't see very well. (So far), I'm glad I did because it's less than half the price, which makes it a much better deal. The G15 is about at 1200 hrs, and I obviously hope it's BL holds up and stays unchanged.


The Kuro has the most flawless PQ I have ever seen, period. But the G15 is damn close. So close that even if it would have been a little more, it would still have been the better deal.

 

[serialmike]

Hey guys,


I just felt like posting my newest plan and feelings. One to make me feel better and two maybe it helps someone else.


Over the weekend I have gone thru many feelings. Disgust and sadness to complete depression over how my set looks. Yes Im a dork, depression! lol.


I spent quite a few hrs looking over sets at BB and Sears and a local place. And I think I have come to some conclusions. I picked this set because it filled a few needs. Awesome picture, Lower chance of IR as I game some, Viewing angle, Motion handling, Quality(arg), Motion resolution.


As I looked over the sets I know that a sammy isnt going to help my blacks enough to spend another 2k for me. A Sony is nice but the model that I would like a xbr8 doesnt exist and a new replacement will be around end of the year. Not even sure I want to go that route due to off angle and motion.

There just anything with all the money in the world that appeases me that I want to get atm.


So my solution which may or may not be an option for someone feeling as helpless as I do atm is bias lighting. The set still looks great on a cloudy day with the right lightng. Im going out today and getting some new floor lamps for the living room. I hope to find something with dimmers on em so I can adjust as needed and only as much as needed. If I can do this I can buy as much time as needed to find the right monitor that blows my mind again rather than just getting something else when this set is so new.


This is a great solution as the wife gets some new decor(they love that stuff) and I band aid a set until I find just what I want, a set I truely love again.


I am really lucky to have a wife that lets me do this crap. Since 2005 I have a 2 sxrd sets with 4 green blob optical blocks replaced, a sony 52v5100 that ended up with flashing color issues and dimming that took a yr to get a firmware fix (well at least sony did fix it) and now this g10. I cant seem to get settled with a dam set that works as intended. Thats like 10 grand in TV's since 05. This doesn't count a pioneer elite in 04 that was 6k that gave me headaches(why I won't go kuro). yep 16 K on TV in 6 yrs.


Anyway Bias lighting is the fix for me for now. The set in medium bright to bright scenes still looks stellar. Just need to fiix the dark scenes and bias light should do it and hold me till I find that great set again.


Hope this helps some people, someone, anyone out there. Sorry to babble just felt the need to talk it out. with people that understand my pain.

 

[Camster]



Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmike /forum/post/18392105


Hey guys,


I just felt like posting my newest plan and feelings. One to make me feel better and two maybe it helps someone else.


Over the weekend I have gone thru many feelings. Disgust and sadness to complete depression over how my set looks. Yes Im a dork, depression! lol.


I spent quite a few hrs looking over sets at BB and Sears and a local place. And I think I have come to some conclusions. I picked this set because it filled a few needs. Awesome picture, Lower chance of IR as I game some, Viewing angle, Motion handling, Quality(arg), Motion resolution.


As I looked over the sets I know that a sammy isnt going to help my blacks enough to spend another 2k for me. A Sony is nice but the model that I would like a xbr8 doesnt exist and a new replacement will be around end of the year. Not even sure I want to go that route due to off angle and motion.

There just anything with all the money in the world that appeases me that I want to get atm.


So my solution which may or may not be an option for someone feeling as helpless as I do atm is bias lighting. The set still looks great on a cloudy day with the right lightng. Im going out today and getting some new floor lamps for the living room. I hope to find something with dimmers on em so I can adjust as needed and only as much as needed. If I can do this I can buy as much time as needed to find the right monitor that blows my mind again rather than just getting something else when this set is so new.


This is a great solution as the wife gets some new decor(they love that stuff) and I band aid a set until I find just what I want, a set I truely love again.


I am really lucky to have a wife that lets me do this crap. Since 2005 I have a 2 sxrd sets with 4 green blob optical blocks replaced, a sony 52v5100 that ended up with flashing color issues and dimming that took a yr to get a firmware fix (well at least sony did fix it) and now this g10. I cant seem to get settled with a dam set that works as intended. Thats like 10 grand in TV's since 05. This doesn't count a pioneer elite in 04 that was 6k that gave me headaches(why I won't go kuro). yep 16 K on TV in 6 yrs.


Anyway Bias lighting is the fix for me for now. The set in medium bright to bright scenes still looks stellar. Just need to fiix the dark scenes and bias light should do it and hold me till I find that great set again.


Hope this helps some people, someone, anyone out there. Sorry to babble just felt the need to talk it out. with people that understand my pain.

Sorry for your pain Mike!! But yeah I would buy the lighting as another 2k might find you as a single man.

I know my wife told me when I bought this set that she didn't want to hear any bitching about it after all the complaining I did with my crappy DLP. Of course I say don't worry I love this set & poof it has some issues. I'm just buying a G20 (replacement for my G10) as I don't see any other compelling choices for me for the reasons you mentioned above.


The Devil you know I guess.........

 

[djbrettb]



Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/18388294


if you want a band-aid for the problem, get your A-board replace every few hundred hours (this can only be done a limited number of times). If you want a real fix, get Panasonic to actually change their algorithm.

My A-board was replaced, and it still didn't even fix the issue - not even temporarily.

 

[mustangs1]



Quote:
Originally Posted by djbrettb /forum/post/18392309


My A-board was replaced, and it still didn't even fix the issue - not even temporarily.

I'm thinking the SS board is the one that will temporarily fix it.