AVS Forum banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I purchased a WD 80GB hard drive replacement for my Panasonic DMR-EH75V with a power rating of 5VDC --- 0.80A , 12VDC --- .75A . Now, looking inside my DVR I see that the power rating for the original Samsung 80GB hard drive that came with the DVR is 5VDC --- 0.6A, 12 VDC --- 0.5A .

I tried to find out the Panasonic DMR-EH75V DVR hard drive power rating requirements. I tried google and looked online for my DVR's operating and service manuals. I could only find out that DVR has a power supply of 34 watts.

I was hoping that I could find out if the DVR's 34 watts power supply would be enough to handle the extra 5VDC --- 0.2A, 12 VDC --- 0.25A power draw that the WD 80GB would introduce that is higher than the power draw of the original Samsung 80GB hard drive.

Now I am not sure if the WD 80GB hard drive should be installed to replace the Samsung 80GB hard drive because of the higher power draw current.

I don't want to risk replacing a higher current power draw hard drive that may damage my DVR's power supply and/or other DVR board components.

Does anyone have any experience with this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
The higher draw is a concern. The power supplies are old now and while they had head room, it wasn't much brand new. That will be less now. Also the higher current will generate more heat.

If you can't find a small lower current draw drive.. you might think going with a Marvell ide to sata adapter and then a $19 for 120 GB M.2 sata SSD with an aluminum bracket to mount the M.2 on first a 2.5 and then 2.5 to 3.5 converter so you end up with a brand new laptop M.2 SSD to replace the HDD.

The TLC NAND chips would need to be "sata" not "NVM pci express" but the smallest you'll be able to find will be 120 GB

An old laptop sata 2.5 SSD or new 2.5 IDE can still be bought off Amazon but then you would need to adapt that with a cable or mounting adapter.. better to move up in technology to something from 2016 than something from 2009. Also M.2 is easier to find than smaller SSDs these days most SSD start at 1000 GB or 1 TB minimum. They just don't make them that small anymore.

Wear leveling is handled on the M.2 itself these days so there would be no TRIM concerns.

You should get 3 years minimum use out of the SSD. But as long as 8 years since the usage pattern will be different from a normal laptop use to chatty web browser traffic. More likely 8 years except where TVGuide data were concerned. But there is no TVGuide data signal left to use the drive.

Unlike a typical laptop hard drive, the SSD only wears when written to, with a fresh new recording, reads are non destructive.. timeshifting being what it is.. most playbacks will be wear free. So SSD for a DVR makes perfect sense.

I put a M.2 sata SSD in a Pioneer DVR-810H Tivo just this week to replace a Maxtor 3.5 IDE drive, not for speed but because I could not reliably find a new drive from that era that didn't have multiple SMART errors predicting failure. It worked fine.

It will be interesting to check up on its usage pattern over the next year.. but starting out the internal wear clock specified failure in 2028. Nineteen dollars over 8 years for a brand like Kingston.. not bad.

Bonus is two fold. First the adapter and bracket only need to be bought one time. Second the spring loaded chip drive form factor can be used to eject the drive and put in a PC to copy recordings off using Isobuster 4.5

Thin LPC ribbon cables which can bring the four wire sata connection outside the case by wiggling between the cover and the chassis are also very easy if you prefer a super slim external bracket to access the chip drive. Its not like the old days when you had to use big bulky HDD docks. Then either the spring loaded M.2 chip can be used to quickly eject the drive.. or a 2.5 laptop drive carrier can be used to make it more of a thin hand hold grab form factor.. there is such a thing as "too small" an HDD replacement.. at 18 mm tall, the whole thing could fit very close to the top or bottom of the outside of the case.

By the way, those 2.5 to 3.5 converter brackets come in anodized black and silver aircraft aluminum (very structurally stiff). They can easily be matched to the color of the case.

I would caution you that the drive needs to be cloned from the old one to retain the boot up firmware on the original drive. Or you'll need to do the FW CDROM dance to brand a copy of it on to the new drive. Since DVD burners can fail or get dirty and balk at helping you do the FW dance.. cloning is more certain.

Time marches on, but stands still for these machines... they are "Timeless"

Icydock makes a "tool less" m.2 to 2.5 adapter which is the one I used a couple days ago, its spring loaded as well but doesn't require a screw to hold the m.2 down in the adapter (the old school traditional method). It simply clicks into place with a satisfying snap when you press it down with your thumb. A flick of your finger nail releases it and it "pops up" like Dracula from a coffin.

This "tool less" version is made of plastic mostly and has a surrounding plastic "vent cage" to both protect and cool the m.2 SSD. It might be more appropriate when mounting the frame to the outside of the case. The whole thing can be bolted to the 2.5 to 3.5 converter or left plugged into the larger frame.. so you could jerk the whole m.2 protective case out with a simple pulling motion, or flip the plastic top up and eject the m.2 chip.

The difference is using the sata connector or a B+M slot when connecting to a PC. People have their druthers and comfort level with technology. An older person might prefer a sata connection in a mobile push/pull slot. A younger person something they can stick in a m.2 USB 3.0 adapter.

I find people get defensive depending on which tech generation they grew up with, so why not be prepared for both?

All these options hover around ten dollars each.. which makes choosing one difficult, its generally based on convenience and not cost.

The USB 3.0 option would make it easy to attach to a laptop running Isobuster to extract recordings however.. no desktop form factor or chunky USB external drive enclosure to hang the sata carrier off the laptop. Much more portable especially for field work.. say sitting in a grove with your DVR watching a SpaceX liftoff and return.. lol. These DVRs have literally days worth of recording capacity.

.. speaking of Liftoffs..

Using m.2 will also be a significant weight reduction to the recorders heft.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Hi jwillis84,

I understand everything you posted in your reply. I like the ideas that you suggested. Especially the one to use a removable m.2 sata ssd in an external case mount having an eject function.

Thanks for your reply.


Hi MickinCT,

Yes. WD HD - WD800JB - 00FMAO - 7200 rpm. Samsung HD - SV0802N - 5400 rpm.

Thanks for your reply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
Another m.2 to IDE "phantom" drive.

I used a 240GB m.2 this time, it was on sale. I think its replacing a 160GB 3.5 inch IDE hard drive from 2005.

The steel frame has threaded holes for the 2.5 drive carrier case, be that the Icydock m.2 holder or a sata SSD. And threaded holes to attach the whole thing to the original 3.5 inch IDE drive frame in the chassis, reusing the same old screws from the DVR recorder.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
Pardon me for the clarification, but is this saying I can make my Diga with an SSD?
That would be yes.. it is an option.

Depending on which model you have you may already have a sata drive, or need an ide to sata adapter.

Once it has a sata connector, there are many full size sata hard drives, or sata SSDs that can replace the hard drive that your Diga has.

The majority of the conversation however was regarding taking it a step further.

IDE hard drives got replaced by SATA hard drives and those got replaced by SATA SSD drives.

SATA SSD drives are currently widely available in many shapes and sizes.

The next step in technology goes beyond SATA SSD drives to SATA m.2 chip drives.. which are even smaller, and cheaper than SATA SSD drives.. and still larger in capacity than the original Diga hard drives.

Its simply a matter of finding all the brackets and adapters to put together to allow you to use something that costs $20 brand new to replace the old Diga hard drives.

Whether it is a good idea to go that far.. has yet to be "proved".. just because you can easily do a thing.. doesn't always mean that you should.

The reason for exploring these options is so we can keep using modern spare parts in 20 year old DVR recorders to keep them going.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Thank you for such a comprehensive reply. Much I am familiar with, other is good review (for me). Much appreciated.

This is great. I'm going to just listen now, but I wanted to acknowledge the posts. Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
I would caution you that the drive needs to be cloned from the old one to retain the boot up firmware on the original drive. Or you'll need to do the FW CDROM dance to brand a copy of it on to the new drive. Since DVD burners can fail or get dirty and balk at helping you do the FW dance.. cloning is more certain.
I am returning to this post as it may be a modification I might try. I think I've lost a another optical writing laser, and I'm typically afraid to even use the DVD burner.

Since, I've realized I have 3.5 SATA external port on my computer, and "sneaker-net" transfer to this port would be satistactory for me.

So.. how do you clone this SSD from the existing HDD, and/or fresh format and get the firmware you're reminding of ? ... in brief at this point.

Also, how has this swap been working so far ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
The swap seems rock solid.

Use the HDD Raw Copy Tool 1.10 it works fine on Windows 7.

I connect the original drive up via an adapter and copy the drive contents to a file on my PC.

Then connect the m.2 SATA SSD via an adapter and copy the drive contents from the file back to the m.2 drive.

Isobuster also reads the raw file format.. so its easy to extract recordings while its on the PC and copy those to playable files.

I've almost stopped experimenting with bringing the pluggable m.2 stick outside the case.. its easy enough when they are filled up to just pop the bonnet and thumb the drive from its m.2 socket and pop that into a m.2 USB Dock connected to my PC.

Recording to the m.2 takes hundreds of hours of real time recording.. that's weeks.. popping the bonnet after recording for weeks to rip all the recording off in one fell swoop isn't that big of a deal. If I wanted I could buy two m.2 sticks and alternate them. They cost $15 to $30 depending on whether you find them on sale, brand new. Thats a lot less than a modern hard drive.

The firmware on the recorder will never utilize the full capacity of these drives.. so they will just keep getting cheaper and cheaper on the low end as they get larger and larger. Buy the smallest m.2 drive you can (that is at least as big as the original HDD).. plug and go.

Did I mention speed?

In the recorder it runs at 100 ATA speeds, in the m.2 Dock connected to the PC it runs at 6000 ATA speeds. Copying everything to the PC really doesn't take very long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
The swap seems rock solid.
That is great to hear! I am following most of what you are saying, and I plan on transferring data similar to how you last described. I want to start this but have just ran into two+ other disasters (other things) that put this further away.

One thing I don't follow is how the firmware will not use the extra SSD data capacity, yet you are saying you can get week(s) of recording.

Also, am I safe from disconnecting the existing HDD, copying from it, and then (if wanted) reconnecting it to the Panasonic without it wanting to reformat it or anything? That is, Windows (I'm using Win10) messing with the existing HDD. I recall reading something about disconnecting and reconnecting, but I know I've disconnected and reconnected the HDD w/o any side effects. (BTW, I downloaded some firmware and blog threads a long time ago that I still have.)

(My main reason for the change-out is to be able to transfer off recordings other than using the optical drive, and this seems to nail it. I'm going to try and order the pieces as soon as possible. I hope you'll take look here in a couple of weeks.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
288 Posts
The firmware isn't the risk when switching drives.

Its a rollback checksum bit in the recording section of the drive.

Basically as the drive accumulates changes (recordings or menu option settings changes) the drive is updated with a counter which tells it that it is the "current" drive. If you replace the "current" drive with an older drive, it will see this and will refuse to play back recordings. It will offer however to wipe the drive and continue to make new recordings after that.

I have experimented, and been able to copy the area with this checksum to an older drive and make that the "current" drive, and play back older recordings. I mentioned this to some people in this forum around a year ago.. but there was little interest.. so I didn't document it very well. I do not know the exact location of the checksum.. just a region.

The [reason] this might be useful is if you wanted to "Archive" whole drives as backups, as if they were DVDs or VHS tapes themselves.. without moving the recordings to a PC. For example, you may want to play the archived recordings back on the original recorder to an old TV.. unlikely these days.. but it was a curious path to explore. I can see why its not as interesting as simply moving them to a PC and choosing to burn DVDs or store them on a modern media server instead.

As to how to get "weeks" of recordings without expanding drive capacity, or claiming the extra space on a new SSD.

The original recorder lets you select the "speed" of recording. You may already have some recordings at slow speeds, or choose to make new ones at slow speed. This degrades the quality of the image.. but allows you to record many more hours. There are typically 172 hours in a week.. at an extra slow speed the original hard drive could store many hours of video recordings.. possibly longer than a week.. possibly weeks.. thats just a loose calculation.. that's all I was referring too.. and your not likely to be recording day and night.. so it adds up to an effective time period of many weeks before its full and you have to pull the m.2 to copy all its recordings off to a PC. You can do that in a a few minutes all at once.

If you can't tolerate a few minutes, maybe ten minutes! Then you could buy multiple m.2 drives and swap them out ratcheting one after the other forward as the "current" drive and swap them as fast as you could move your fingers. The tool less m.2 tray just takes the motion of your thumb to eject or secure the m.2 drive.. not much effort at all.

To be sure (Understand) the concept of "forward" motion with the removal and reinstall of the drive. Once you insert a new drive and make a new recording.. that drive becomes the "current" drive. If you swap an older one in that does not have that "current" checksum.. the recorder will detect something is not right and only offer to "re-format" the drive.. and wipe out all the recordings on it.

But if you only have one drive, and only remove it to copy recordings off to a PC and then immediately put it back in the recorder.. nothing is a miss.. and it continues like normal.

As another precaution.. be sure the PC is not allowed to write to the drive.. that will foul everything up.. unless you made a whole drive backup to recover from. This is rather an advanced art and you have to treat it with respect.. and make backups to prepare for accidents.

Its also something to re-state. You need a licensed copy of Isobuster to do this. Isobuster is a data recovery program that has been "smarted up" to understand how to read these custom microprocessor derrived disk formats and can copy (called 'extract') recordings from the recorder hard drive to a PC hard drive. It does run on anything from XP to Windows 10, and on Mac and Linux using Virtualbox.. its amazingly flexible.

This only happened in the last two years.. prior to that Isobuster could not do it.. and there were only a scattering of manual scripts for grabbing chunks off an image that weren't really practical for extracting recordings.

There really isn't a 'free' way.. and its kind of important to understand a lot of work went into upgrading Isobuster by the author to do this.. I went hat in hand to him because I saw he was a brilliant programmer and had a good interface for handling this. He took the idea graciously and made a lot of changes to his recovery software to do this. Its a dream to use.. very intuitive and visually comforting. Its not a command line driven difficult to use tool. Its a complete windows program which is still maintained and continues to evolve and has support. And its really not that expensive.. I mean I dare say its cheap.

Another issue is (unused space) on an SSD.. is important for "wear leveling".. the controller on the m.2 drive spreads out the writes across the entire disk space.. even unused sectors.. so that the drive wears out "even" and lasts longer. All drives.. mechanical or silcon have a finite lifespan.. they wear out.

Rotating hard disks wear out consistently in 5-10 years depending on use. Silicon drives were designed to wear out in about 3-5 years when they were full in laptops. But used in a DVD recorder their usage pattern skews to 5-10 years because they tend to read more than write. A laptop SSD is a tornado of read/write activity.. a DVD recorder is surprisingly sedate and calm.

Unused SSD space still gets used for wear-leveling.. and this increases the lifespan of the drive.

You may have heard of TRIM in Windows 7 or MacOS, its not something to worry about in this case. TRIM was a salvage attempt to make the tornado effect in a laptop burn the drive out "less".. its kind of clunky and applies only to tiny reads and writes which laptops perform in droves.. a DVD recorder simply doesn't operate like that.

Finally a physical hard drive gives little to no warning when its about to fail.. it might randomly start clicking.. or a SMART alert tool might tell you bad stuff is happening.. but it can't make predictions. If you want you can just "ask" an SSD how much life is left and it will "tell you" how long is left based on its past usage.. it actually has a predictive estimator built-in.

So moving to SSDs and learning to use and manage them has a lot of bonus points.

I would agree the days of Optical disc burning are rapidly receding in the rear view mirror. You can still do it.. you might even find an old drive to do it "one more time".. but the parts aren't being made anymore and salvaging drives from discarded recorders will eventually become impractical.

I looked at a lot of options.. and went from SD cards to Compact flash.. but kept finding I was behind the times.. even SSDs used to be chunky blocks of tin.. now SSD means an m.2 chip the size of a postage stamp.. who knows what's next.

This appears to be the way forward.. but the IDE to SATA adapters with the Marvell chips are getting harder to find.. I would do it now.. before those completely dry up. Not every IDE to SATA adapter works in my experience.. only the Marvells are reliable. -- and that took a lot of trial and error to discover. Startech is probably the best.. if expensive.. place to find them right now on Amazon.. for how long? Who knows. But they are running about $30 to $40 a piece.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
...maybe ten minutes
OK. I've done some planning, researching and have made a decision to do this a little differently, and these are my selections:

On there way! :
SSD
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0722XPTL6/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

INTERNAL CONVERTER MOUNT
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B074K95T4X/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

EXTERNAL MOUNT
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07Q711K8H/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1

IDE to SATA
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00EOJNGC2/ref=ya_aw_od_pi?ie=UTF8&psc=1


This is an adapter I already had. I'm wondering your opinion on using this along with Isobuster (which I have yet to get):
IDE to PC - for first cloning and possible restoring
Adapter USI-2535 | KWI Technology Inc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Continuing to this thread, post #10

 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top