[jjeff]

I know Digido has addressed this in another thread, but for the life of me I can't find it, and it was actually in another thread, not specifically talking about this grinding problem so I thought it deserved a thread of itself.

I know this problem effects Panasonic DMR-es30, es-15, es-25 and EZ-17. I assume all Panny's, but have personally only observed the grinding in the above models.


Problem-especially noticeable during finalizing, changing thumbnails, writing titles, etc. What will happen when trying to do the above the machine will make a loud grinding noise, sometimes followed by a self check, which may make disc unreadable or unfinalizable.

I've tried cleaning discs, which don't really help. Today I had this problem again, this time I noticed the inner hub of the disc was all scuffed up(like it had been slipping in the machine). I know it did not previously have this scuffing. So on a hunch I looked at all my previous discs that failed finalizing, and sure enough the inner hub was scuffed. So I think what is happening is the rubber part that holds the DVD is dusty, causing the DVD to slip, when the speed needs to change fast, for whatever reason. When it slips when writing to the disc I believe it causes dire consequences.


To test this thought I took another disc to finalize. I slightly moistened the upper and lower inner hub of the DVD(with saliva), and tried finalizing the disc. This time it worked fine with no grinding. After I looked at the inner hub and this time it had some dust stuck to it. I tried this same thing with several DVD's and they all worked fine, and the dirt on the inner hub lessened with each disc.


I suppose the correct thing to do is to take the machine apart and clean the hubs with a q-tip and alcohol, but if you're in a jam, or don't want to take the machine apart, spit seems to work fine. Note only a little will do, you don't want to have it spin off the inner hub and get on the laser. I also think saliva will work better than water, since it's slightly sticky and will attract the dust to the inner hub of the disc, where it can be wiped off after taking the disc out. I think water would not attract the dust as much, also water would not make the DVD stick to the hub as well as sticky saliva.


I'm sure this sounds like a rather unorthodox solution, but it made a old Panny of mine, that had been previously ruining discs left and right, work for all 10 discs I needed to finalize with no problems. Before this I would never think of finalizing discs on this machine, due to chronic grinding/crashing.


Note cleaning CD's only clean the laser with it's brushes, they do nothing to the rubber hub, that holds the DVD from slipping. I think this hub's ability to hold the DVD is crucial to reliable finalizing. Previously I had always blamed the laser for unreliable finalizing, now I think it's more related to the slippage of the disc during writing.

 

[Mike99]

My EZ17 is a lot noisier than my EZ20. Since I mainly use DVD-RAM I do not do a lot of finalizing so I cannot really comment on that aspect.


But when doing Chase Play the EZ17 really grinds away. It even bothers my wife. Someone else on this forum previously agreed the EZ17 was noisy. When I spoke with a Panasonic Engineer he said said the EZ17 was noisier than my old ES20. They try to control costs, etc. He didn't go into great detail, but basically things are made cheaper.


It may be worth taking the thing apart for cleaning. Certainly would not hurt. But I wonder why my old ES20 is so much quieter. Perhaps it can tolerate a bit more dust & dirt.

 

[jjeff]

I think the noise you are talking about is different than the grinding I'm referring to. My es-30 is normally very quiet during all aspects of recording finalizing, except when the disc slips. My es-15, 25 and EZ-17 are noisier all around. My es-30 is also much heavier, so maybe the chassis helps insulate some of the noise. The grinding I'm talking about is even louder than the normal noise made on the later machines. You'd know it, when you hear it. It's very loud, and scary, since usually disc failure follows that noise.

 

[computerman3]

I just had my Panasonic Es15 in for Repair due to this very issue, they replaced the DVD-Ram drive in it, the spare machine was starting to act up when i had this one in. Hopefully the repaired one doesn't develop it again for a very long time, was annoying sound and lost alot of discs due to it. Gonna be using Dual Layer Disc later on, once i get caught up on editing all the series shows, and hopefully that works fine.


My Old E80 didn't make any sounds for 6 years, til it quit working, took it to bestbuy repair, and then i ended up getting Es15 when they couldn't repair the E80, i do like the Es15 for picture quality and all the features, just little uneasy how long this DVD drive will last in it, might start using Es30 more than this one if i have to, and give this one less use, unless it's a movie i really wanna record, and dvd-ram transfers


Chasing Play i don't use that much, but i might try it out sometime soon, and see if it works fine, might as well test all the features in the 30 day time frame since repair. Timer recordings, chasing play, DVD+R DL, DVD+RW Recordings, +R/-R--any features i missed to test with it. Does seem to be working great now, normal noises, no loud grinding or anything

 

[jjeff]

Just a update to my unorthodox solution to grinding Panny's. Yesterday I finally got around to finalizing many~50 -R DVD's. I know I wasnt listening to my own advise to always finalize discs shortly after filling them up, but I had a stack that I had recorded last year, and never got around to finalizing.

I used my oldest DVDR, a Panny es-30, which previously I had had many issues with crashing discs during finalizing. It would start the grinding, and would go downhill from there. I used this machine because I wanted to test my thought about the problem that made the discs crash was because of disc slippage during finalizing.


Well I started and got through a few DVD's with no problems. Then I inserted a disc that was a little scuffed up. The machine immediately started the grinding thing, but did not crash the disc. I took it out and reinserted the disc, and the same grinding. Next I took the disc out and slightly moistened my finger with saliva, and ran it around the inner hub on both the top and bottom of the disc.

I then inserted the disc, and NO grinding. I went on to change thumbnails, name them, etc. all with no grinding. Then I finalized the disc(with my fingers crossed) and NO problems. All went fine.

The grinding happened on a few other discs, which I then took out and moistened the inner hub, reinserted them, and NO problems.


I ended up finalizing the whole stack with NO PROBLEMS. None crashed. Now this is a BIG deal. Before moistening the inner hub, this machine would crash DVD's regularly. That's why I never used it for finalizing. It would record OK, most of time, but rarely would it finalize OK.


My guess what is happening now is that the inner rubber hub's rubber is old and slightly hard. Moistening it gives it just enough grip to make a successful finalize. I suppose the correct thing would to be replace the rubber part, or use something I used to use in VCR days, called REGRIP. It is a chemical that eats away the dead rubber, exposing a clean grippe surface. It used to work wonders on VCR idler wheels and rubber belts.

Maybe someday I'll take the es-30 apart again and do this, but for now I've got plenty of spit!

Note a little spit will do. You don't want so much that it in itself causes slippage or flies off onto the laser. Just a moistened finger worked for me.

 

[DigaDo]

Jeff,


The lens and rubber hub cleaning advice and photos are found in this post and the posts that follow it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post14479898

 

[jjeff]

Here's a link to your specific post. I just recently learned how to link to a specific post, it works nice.

I hope this was the post you were thinking about.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post12803681

 

[DigaDo]

Jeff,


The post you linked to is the one I had in mind, but several others in that thread also contain pertinent cleaning details where there are DVD drive failures. There are other posts that mention other corrective measures for various problems.


I have combined some of the DVD drive text into this post.


Here is advice concerning DVD drives that seem to be failing but just need a spindle/hub cleaning:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=210507


Following these detailed instructions clean the lens, rubber and plastic spindle parts and hub area, and the circular guide in the DVD drive lid.


Panasonic 2006 and newer DVD drives are easy to service. Remove the case top cover to get access to the DVD drive. Remove the four small Phillips screws and lift the DVD drive top lid. When viewing the DVD drive from the front (where the tray rolls out) notice the roller assembly at the rear of the DVD tray. This mechanism must be positioned to the left corner before reassembly so these parts will be correctly aligned to the guide rail on the underside of the drive lid. With the 2006 and newer models opening of the Panasonic case, removing the DVD drive lid, cleaning the drive, closing the drive lid, and closing the case takes around fifteen minutes.


With 2005 or older models the case cover and the front panel assembly may need to be removed in order to give clearance for the DVD drive lid to be lifted somewhat at the front, slid forward, allowing the rear to disengage, following which the lid may be lifted off. The opaque plastic part at the left rear seems to be a retainer/guide. Allow around 35 minutes for opening the case, removal of the front panel after loosening the snap clips at the top, sides and bottom; removing the DVD drive lid; cleaning and reassembly.


On a combo recorder be sure to hold the VHS door open as the front panel is fitted back into place.


I have an older (2003) Panasonic DVD-S35 player where the DVD drive itself is of a more "open" design, but cleaning access to the rubber spindle is more difficult. Use a long stemmed swab.

 

[Skibster]

Jjeff kindly helped me solve a problem with my Panasonic being unable to read discs last year, and it gave me an additional year with the player. But a few days ago after I cleaned the spindle again due to a little skipping (I've done a few times over the year), it wouldn't read a disc at all. I've taken it apart to try to figure out what is wrong and put it back together several times, to no avail. Anyone have any idea what is wrong, or is it just time to toss it out?


If it helps, the message I get is that any disc is unreadable. On recordable discs, it will let me access a menu to record (which I didn't try to do), but it wouldn't let me watch or even see the list of programs already recorded on that disc.

 

[DigaDo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skibster /forum/post/16339510


Jjeff kindly helped me solve a problem with my Panasonic being unable to read discs last year, and it gave me an additional year with the player. But a few days ago after I cleaned the spindle again due to a little skipping (I've done a few times over the year), it wouldn't read a disc at all. I've taken it apart to try to figure out what is wrong and put it back together several times, to no avail. Anyone have any idea what is wrong, or is it just time to toss it out?


If it helps, the message I get is that any disc is unreadable. On recordable discs, it will let me access a menu to record (which I didn't try to do), but it wouldn't let me watch or even see the list of programs already recorded on that disc.

If the "no read" is accompanied with "clunking" or "chugging" noises the lens may be dirty or has failed. Did you gently clean the lens when you cleaned the rubber hub?


If the lens is clean and you hear clunking or chugging noises your laser assembly probably has failed or there are other problems, sometimes related to a disturbance to a ribbon cable resulting in damage to a ribbon cable contact. Sometimes a contact in a ribbon cable connector on the Digital PCB will drift forward and damage the ribbon cable contact strip as a ribbon cable is removed from the connector. If that is the case gently drift the contact back into place. The damaged portion of the ribbon cable contact strip may be trimmed back to provide uniformity. The Digital PCB is mounted next to the DVD Drive on DVD recorders or on the sub-platform under the DVD Drive on combo recorders and some hard drive models.


If there has been no disturbance to the ribbon cable(s) the more likely problem is with the Digital PCB itself. Replacement may be the only option.


What model Panasonic do you have?

 

[Skibster]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DigaDo /forum/post/16340321


If the "no read" is accompanied with "clunking" or "chugging" noises the lens may be dirty or has failed. Did you gently clean the lens when you cleaned the rubber hub?


If the lens is clean and you hear clunking or chugging noises your laser assembly probably has failed or there are other problems, sometimes related to a disturbance to a ribbon cable resulting in damage to a ribbon cable contact. Sometimes a contact in a ribbon cable connector on the Digital PCB will drift forward and damage the ribbon cable contact strip as a ribbon cable is removed from the connector. If that is the case gently drift the contact back into place. The damaged portion of the ribbon cable contact strip may be trimmed back to provide uniformity. The Digital PCB is mounted next to the DVD Drive on DVD recorders or on the sub-platform under the DVD Drive on combo recorders and some hard drive models.


If there has been no disturbance to the ribbon cable(s) the more likely problem is with the Digital PCB itself. Replacement may be the only option.


What model Panasonic do you have?

I have the DMR-ES15. It's getting late now, but tomorrow I will try what you suggested and report back whether that helps. Now that I think of it, I may have messed something up/knocked something around while cleaning it as it certainly was messed up after. The dvd door wouldn't even open when I first put the case back and plugged it back in, and I could hardly get the case back off again to re-set it. I guess I jammed the case onto something when I put it all back together the first time. Once I sorted that out, though, it wouldn't read discs anymore. The hard part is figuring out what I might have done and putting it right.

 

[CitiBear]

DigaDo has noted several times that some Panasonics need extra-careful reassembly of the drive or it doesn't work right. There is a roller bar or something that has to be in the correct "drive off and empty" position. I'm sure he'll chime in shortly with a reference to the exact thread where those instructions are.

 

[DigaDo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skibster /forum/post/16341707


I have the DMR-ES15. It's getting late now, but tomorrow I will try what you suggested and report back whether that helps. Now that I think of it, I may have messed something up/knocked something around while cleaning it as it certainly was messed up after. The dvd door wouldn't even open when I first put the case back and plugged it back in, and I could hardly get the case back off again to re-set it. I guess I jammed the case onto something when I put it all back together the first time. Once I sorted that out, though, it wouldn't read discs anymore. The hard part is figuring out what I might have done and putting it right.

The DVD Drive parts must be correctly fitted together before the DVD Drive will function correctly.


The roller/slider at the rear of the disc tray MUST be positioned to the far left corner of the disc tray and MUST slide easily along its platform. If the drive lid was difficult to reposition and secure the roller/slider may have been dislodged from its platform or was not properly positioned to run along the guide channel on the underside of the DVD Drive lid. Another reassembly problem occurs if the cogs at the leading edge of the DVD Drive lid are not properly aligned with the posts at the front sides of the DVD Drive case. If that is the problem the DVD Drive lid is improperly seated. This leads to all manner of functionality problems as the spindle attempts to lift the disc above the disc tray for clamping to the guide wheel at the center of the drive lid during reading, writing and finalizing. This post has a photo showing the correct positioning of the roller/slider at the rear of the disc tray and its relation to the guide rail on the underside of the DVD Drive lid:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post14565286


Other more serious complications follow disturbing, extending or removing the disc tray with the DVD Drive lid removed. This post has detailed instructions keyed to several photos dealing with reinstallation/realignment of the disc tray.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15745506


If the problems are related to a disturbance to the disc tray itself, this post clarifies the best method to gain access to the DVD Drive in order to avoid disturbing the ribbon cables when reinstalling/realigning the disc tray.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post15773564

 

[jjeff]

While I agree the best solution to a dirty spindle is to take the drive apart and clean with a Q-tip and some solvent, don't forget about the saliva method

I still have one ES-15 that is used almost daily that will occasionally grind. Due to it's location, above a desk on the bottom of a stack of equipment below lots and lots of cabling, I've chosen to not take the machine apart.

I'd say every couple months I'll hear a brief grinding from the drive. As soon as I do I take out the DVD and sure enough the clear center has circular scratches. I just moisten my finger, rub my finger only on the bottom clear inner part of the disc, reinsert the disc and wala no more grinding. I do this for the next few discs and after that all is well for the next couple months.

The key is to listen for the grinding shortly after inserting the disc, when doing things like changing thumbnails or especially finalizing the disc. If you catch it early and immediately eject the disc and moisten the bottom, I've not had a coaster in literally 100's of burns.


If you feel comfortable taking the cover off the drive by all means clean the spindle correctly but if you're afraid you'll end up not being able to get things back together, try the saliva method. Note if you're drive is extremely dirty this method may not work, but for the occasional build up it works wonders.

Also note it's much harder to hear the grinding on pre '06 Pannys because of the overall much quieter drive, but if you listen carefully in a quieter room you'll be able to hear it slip, which will only get worse unless you take some action. Good luck on whichever method you use.

 

[Skibster]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DigaDo /forum/post/14565286


The photos show a typical DVD drive found on 2006 models.


In the first photo notice the guide rail on the underside of the DVD drive lid. Observe the guide rail's relation to the roller/slider mechanism at the rear of the disc tray. When the disc tray is in the retracted positon the roller/slider mechanism must be positioned to the far left when the drive lid is fitted back to the DVD drive case. On 2006 or newer DVD drives take care to anchor the cogs at the front side-edge of the lid to the pivot posts at the front of the drive case before lowering the lid into position.


The second photo shows the correct screw positioning not far from the drive lid corners on 2006 and newer DVD drives.


2005 and older DVD drive lids anchor at the rear and lift at the front. The screws securing the drive lids on those models are more centrally located.

Looking at the first photo, my unit is missing the roller/slider mechanism that is supposed to be in the far left. Is it possible I never had one? Otherwise, mine must have come off somehow. I never touched it; I only used a q-tip on the black spindle. I was doing all this while holding the unit on my lap, though, and the postman came to the door twice and I had to set it aside quickly. I don't know how I might have knocked something off then, but that's all I can think of. I've looked around and don't see this part lying around anywhere, so if it's necessary then I may have messed this unit up for good. Which is a bummer, but I just remind myself that I've gotten a year more life out of it than I would have if I hadn't found the advice on cleaning the spindle last year.


Edit: Got an idea that I should tell the disc drive to open whilst I had this all apart, and I found the piece underneath! Now to see if I can get it sorted...


Edit again: It's working! I really thought this unit was a goner; my husband wanted to just toss it out but I had to try fixing it as it's just so expensive replacing these things. Thank you guys so much for going to the trouble to post explanations, and that photo was especially helpful DigaDo, as I never would've realized a part had shaken lose without it. The picture doesn't seem quite as sharp, but it may just be the disc I'm testing it with (taped six hours of movies on it, so not high speed). Hopefully it's as good as new, and it's a least better than it was earlier today, lol.

 

[ti-triodes]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skibster /forum/post/16343893


Looking at the first photo, my unit is missing the roller/slider mechanism that is supposed to be in the far left. Is it possible I never had one? Otherwise, mine must have come off somehow. I never touched it; I only used a q-tip on the black spindle. I was doing all this while holding the unit on my lap, though, and the postman came to the door twice and I had to set it aside quickly. I don't know how I might have knocked something off then, but that's all I can think of. I've looked around and don't see this part lying around anywhere, so if it's necessary then I may have messed this unit up for good. Which is a bummer, but I just remind myself that I've gotten a year more life out of it than I would have if I hadn't found the advice on cleaning the spindle last year.


Edit: Got an idea that I should tell the disc drive to open whilst I had this all apart, and I found the piece underneath! Now to see if I can get it sorted...


Edit again: It's working! I really thought this unit was a goner; my husband wanted to just toss it out but I had to try fixing it as it's just so expensive replacing these things. Thank you guys so much for going to the trouble to post explanations, and that photo was especially helpful DigaDo, as I never would've realized a part had shaken lose without it. The picture doesn't seem quite as sharp, but it may just be the disc I'm testing it with (taped six hours of movies on it, so not high speed). Hopefully it's as good as new, and it's a least better than it was earlier today, lol.

A woman who works on her own electronics! If you weren't married you'd have 20 guys in this forum proposing!

 

[rekoj]

This thread provides really awesome instructions for cleaning dvd burner in dvd recorder. I have two Panasonic DVD recorders with HDD (2003 and 2005 models). I was able to solve my problem in one of them with the dvd drive not reading any disk at all by simply re-plugging/tighting cables when I opened the unit to check for problem. Simply as that, one Panasonic works great again.


However, I was not so succesfull with the 2nd dvd recorder. Following cleaning instruction provided by jjeff (leaving tray open and unplugging AC cord from outlet, positioning tray by hand) I cleaned rubber spindle. It did not solve my problem.

I saw kind of dusty "interior" inside that dvd drive, and I think that good dusting would not be harmful at all. It is not a new model with 4 screws on the front, so more disassembly would be required (front panel, etc.)


I do not have problem to open the unit, unscrew, follow directions, de-solder and solder capacitors, etc., but I am reluctant to open the dvd drive case that states "CAUTION LASER 3B INVISIBLE RADIATION" etc.


Of course, I always unplug AC cord from the wall outlet, even unplug the cord from the unit, disconnect cables/connections inside, if needed, but I am still not sure about opening and cleaning the lens and inside of the dvd drive having this yellow warning label on it.


Does anyone know where is the laser, and what is the possibility to be exposed to invisible radiation (with unplugged unit and dvd drive.) I saw many of you already opened the dvd drive. So is it safe?

 

[billmich]

Bringing up a VERY old thread, but still one that is probably relevant.


One solution I have done to keep my discs from slipping is to take some Scotch tape and gently dab the inner most part of the disc, near the center hole. This adding of a "tacky" substance seems to really aid in the grip of the spindle to discs. I know there was discussion at one point about how T-Y discs were naturally more "grippy" than other brands and therefore suffered less from the "slipping", but I use T-Y and even now there are times that they will slip without some assistance.


Any one else use tape or other substance (other than saliva?)

At some point it probably would be a good idea to get in and clean off that spindle. But after 10 years, that rubber may have naturally hardened and really not have much natural grip left


your thoughts guys??????

 

[mickinct]



Quote:
Originally Posted by billmich  /t/982378/panasonic-dvdr-grinding-when-finalizing-discs#post_24809174


Bringing up a VERY old thread, but still one that is probably relevant.


One solution I have done to keep my discs from slipping is to take some Scotch tape and gently dab the inner most part of the disc, near the center hole. This adding of a "tacky" substance seems to really aid in the grip of the spindle to discs. I know there was discussion at one point about how T-Y discs were naturally more "grippy" than other brands and therefore suffered less from the "slipping", but I use T-Y and even now there are times that they will slip without some assistance.


Any one else use tape or other substance (other than saliva?)

At some point it probably would be a good idea to get in and clean off that spindle. But after 10 years, that rubber may have naturally hardened and really not have much natural grip left


your thoughts guys??????

` The disc is in contact with the rubber on the spindle on the bottom of disc, you could use hub labels on the bottom of disc, i've used these and it helped,

 

[billmich]

please define hub labels