AVS Forum banner
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I have the same exact question, but I can share where I stand right now.


It seems that the Panny is the better camera by most 'official' reviews. But there are a few issues (fan noise in quiet areas, 60p is not fully supported so you would have to add the extra step to convert the videos you take).


I think at the end of the day the decision seems to be between the quality of the Panny versus the ease of use of the Cannon (not having to down convert the 60p). I should note I'm on a Mac so I have to go thru the conversion process.


I also don't like the fact that the 60p is in a proprietary codec.


Can anyone else offer advice on this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,075 Posts
You can also shoot in 60i. Shooting in 1080 60pyou can have the camcorder itself down convert so you don't have to use the computer.


The AVCHD is also a proprietary codec just like many other codecs. For Final Cut users, people have been using ClipWrap which turns it into a pure MP4 format that Final Cut can read. I agree that Panasonic should push much harder when it comes to companies making their stuff fully, fully compatible with 1080 60p but Apple should share a lot of that blame. Most good NLE's can import almost any codec without issue. Even Premiere CS5 on Apple can import the files without any issues at all. I edited some 1080 60p files on a Mac Pro without issues using Premiere.



When it comes to choosing between them, it depends on the priories.

The TM700 has better low light capabilities, far better day light capabilities when using 1080 60p which allows the footage to fare better against footage years from now. It also have a view finder which I believe should be in every camcorder in this price range.


For the HF S200, it has fully native 24p so if you need to edit something extremely quickly, it'll be more convenient than using the 24p mode of the Panasonic since you have to also buy NeoScene. Also in very quite environments, you'll hear a very slight fan noise so if you plan on conduction inteviews using the built in mic, it might be better to have the Canon but on the other hand,for people who really care about audio, they would never use the built in mic unless they really don't have a choice. Still, if you have a heater or AC on, it can easily be louder.


I know for me, without question it would be the TM700 without thinking about it because I don't want my images to look that old in several years while for some people who needs to edit 24p quickly or mostly like 24p over 60p, they may be happier with the HF S200 just as long as the lack of view finder doesn't bug them too much.


There's also the Panasonic SD600 which has the exact picture quality of the TM700 but is missing a focusing ring, a mic input and a viewfinder. It only costs $500 at both Amazon and B&H.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,527 Posts
Native 24p -> the Canon. 1080p60 -> the Panasonic. It is that simple. If you don't care for either, then choose by features. For example, the Canon has a much better LCD screen, while the Panasonic has a better focus ring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,075 Posts
It seams like your all set in getting the TM700 anyway but all I want to say is when looking at Amazon reviews for any product, it's best to read the 1 and 2 star reviews very carefully. Some of these 1 star reviews are from people who absolutely have no idea what there talking about.


Amazon really needs better guidelines on how reviews should be conducted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
This question (and the one asking about the TM700 against the Sony CX500) keep coming up over and over again in this forum.


I honestly think that in order to answer this question one major fundamental question needs to be asked. That is, what will be the final output of your clips? For many of us, it's blu-ray disk. If this is what you are looking to do, you cannot author 1080 60p footage onto a blu-ray disk! So, while the TM700 looks absolutely fantastic at 1080 60p, its footage HAS to be converted in order to author to a blu-day disk. Either that or author to 720p!


For me, after using the camcorder for months, this was a deal breaker and I ended up selling mine. I HAVE used the Canon, but actually ended up with the Sony. It's video is pretty good (no not quite as good as the Panasonic at 60p, but as good as if not better than the Panasconic at 60i).


If all you want is to be able to view out of the camera onto an HDTV, or upload to the web, the Panasonic may very well be your best bet. But if you should want to author to blu-ray, the Canon or Sony might be a better choice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,075 Posts
I'm glad I didn't think about that when I bought the HC1. I was definitely not that prepared to deal with it's footage in 2005 but looking back, I'm extremely glad I made that decision. I want my footage to not look as ancient once the years go by. This is why I might finally decide to get a TM700. For sure every body has different reasons for choosing their camcorder.


Their are other factors such as picking a camcorder that has a view finder, being able to edit 24p extremely quickly or how much your willing to spend. In this case something like the CX550 would probably be completely irrelevant because the price is much higher unless the budget gets higher.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
I'm stuck in the same place. I'm leaning towards the tm700 because of picture quality, but I know that I probably won't use 60p at the beginning since I do edit and would like to save blurays. Still it's nice to have as futureproofing. So the Canon is tempting, but I like the viewfinder on the tm700 and the Canon models with viewfinders cost a lot more.


So...two questions:


1. if I use 60i or 24p, will the Panny still have better picture quality than the others?

2. how much hassle is it to use 24p on the Panny. I thought you just change the setting and download it, but Paulo's comment sounds like there's an extra software step.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sshefer
It seems that the Panny is the better camera by most 'official' reviews. But there are a few issues (fan noise in quiet areas, 60p is not fully supported so you would have to add the extra step to convert the videos you take).
The fan noise issue is usually overstated... some cameras seem to have it excessively, others, you can barely hear it, and may pick up nothing on the mics. That latter case seems to be more typical, but of course, any problem that exists gets vocalized.


I have a TM700, but I rarely use the internal mics on any camera, so I'm not going to make any claims from personal experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sshefer
I think at the end of the day the decision seems to be between the quality of the Panny versus the ease of use of the Cannon (not having to down convert the 60p).
You CAN shoot in normal 1080/60i or 1080/24p with the Panasonic; downconversion isn't required. If you shoot in 1080/60p and author to Blu-Ray, you have your choice of 1080/60i or 720/60p. And in particular, you may prefer 1080/60i for Blu-Ray, but you can still do 720/60p or 720/30p for online from the same source. And the 1080/60p is there in your archives, for the day when some video format does support it. So there's no real "easy of use" advantage to the Canon.


The Canon's native 24p vs. Panny's 24p in 60i is, however, a real advantage. This is in part an image quality thing, but even moreso, a usability thing. Back when 1080/24p in 1080/60i was the default 24p format (due to tape), NLEs started being able to detect this. But many seem to have dropped the ball on it, since professional cameras went tapeless and supported 1080/24p directly. Panasonic is stupid doing it this way... and they didn't always. The old SD9 did native 24p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sshefer
I also don't like the fact that the 60p is in a proprietary codec.
It isn't -- it's bog standard AVC (H.264, MPEG-4 Part 10) video, using bog standard AC-3 audio, in a bog standard MPEG-2 TS wrapper. It just doesn't meet the specs for the AVCHD standard... a standard built on top of all these other standards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
264 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazydave
....It isn't -- it's bog standard AVC (H.264, MPEG-4 Part 10) video, using bog standard AC-3 audio, in a bog standard MPEG-2 TS wrapper. It just doesn't meet the specs for the AVCHD standard... a standard built on top of all these other standards.
Well said. In fact, it's more likely that the AVCHD spec could be modified shortly to include 60p at over 25Mbps, and become a new standard, since both Sony and Panasonic are moving towards this higher quality level now. Panasonic could not do it by themselves because they don't own the rights to AVCHD alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,075 Posts
The way people fix the 24p issue is by buying NeoScene for around $100. Basically you tell the software that you want 24p within 60i footage to turn into native 24p and it'll shoot out a high quality 24p CineForm AVI stream. I've done that for my GH1's files and it's much easier than I thought but the biggest issue is destroying $100 when you could have saved that money. Still, their are a lot of people who convert AVCHD of any flavor to CinForm if they plan on doing intense editing but for people who want to do simple editing, they should really not have to spend $100. Their are cheaper and even free ways but some can be hard to figure out and others will shoot out to an H,264 codec. You might make it easier on yourself and shoot out to an AVI codec which is why CineForm's NeoScene gets mentioned the most.


Based on features and value without question, I personally think the TM700 would be better especially for me but I wish it could have been better and I know it could have been better. The least Panasonic should do is release a successor of HMC40 with the better lens, stabilizer and 1080 60p of the SDT750/TM750 and it's own 720 60p and native 1080 24p mode. It would be a nearly perfect camcorder if Panasonic did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert /forum/post/19594637


Well said. In fact, it's more likely that the AVCHD spec could be modified shortly to include 60p at over 25Mbps, and become a new standard, since both Sony and Panasonic are moving towards this higher quality level now. Panasonic could not do it by themselves because they don't own the rights to AVCHD alone.

The AVCHD spec was originally created from the Blu-Ray specs, scaled down to allow recording on DVD for camcorders (a few years back, DVD camcorders had weirdly become the most popular consumer format). They boosted it to 24Mb/s to improve quality on flash/HDD units, not so much because they needed it in the development labs, only because real on-camera AVC encoders weren't yet very good, and this was a big help.


I don't know if they have an official policy of tracking Blu-Ray, but it stands to reason. The main reason for these higher-level specs is interoperability... BD players, cameras, editing software, all out there speaking the same language. I was kind of hoping they'd add 1080/60p to Blu-Ray with the 3D update to the spec, but they haven't.


It would make some sense to follow Blu-Ray's lead and define different profiles. Or even a second standard -- AVCXD: supports 1080/60p, 3D (need to have Sony on board, that's apparently all they think about), bitrates to 48Mb/s, uncompressed stereo or 5.1 channel AC-3, etc. All AVCXD devices are playback compatible with AVCHD.


I mean, it's easy to create a spec. Once created, though, you more or less have to leave it alone, or it stops working as a real spec. And the trick is always getting manufacturers to adopt it, and then really comply.
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top