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I am glad to see the panny get a good review, but what I didn't get was how on earth he could (yet again) claim that It outperforms the 9G kuro.

We all know it doesn't according to the calibration charts.


They did this same thing with the G10. They claimed it was the best.

And also with the panny professional model.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 /forum/post/16914241


I am glad to see the panny get a good review, but what I didn't get was how on earth he could (yet again) claim that It outperforms the 9G kuro.

We all know it doesn't according to the calibration charts.

Can you tell how a speaker or amplifier sounds by looking its frequency response? Calibration chart won't tell you how noisy the picture is or how the display copes with gradations. The list could go on.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16914333


Can you tell how a speaker or amplifier sounds by looking its frequency response? Calibration chart won't tell you how noisy the picture is or how the display copes with gradations. The list could go on.

oh, my bad.

I thought this was a science forum where measurements matter.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 /forum/post/16914460


That guy seems to declare every new tv he touches to be "The new King!" of all HDTVs. The V10 isn't even the best Panasonic.

Then in your opinion, which model is the best Panny plasma?


FYI, the V10 is enjoying quite alot of high praise from other reviewers

as well as users.

Forget about the Guru
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nats /forum/post/16914714


then in your opinion, which model is the best panny plasma?


Fyi, the v10 is enjoying quite alot of high praise from other reviewers

as well as users.

Forget about the guru

th-50vx100u

&

th-65vx100u
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 /forum/post/16914693


oh, my bad.

I thought this was a science forum where measurements matter.

You are measuring only one aspect of display while eyes are measuring all aspects. You should have more measurements than just calibration chart to tell anything meaningful about a display.
 

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I have also noticed that the HDGuru's "best" designation changes frequently. However in his defense I must point out that the state of the art in video reproduction does advance incrementally and he does a good job of keeping abreast of the changes. It is also true that the HDGuru, or any other A/V web site or printed A/V publication, had best frequently say good things about a product they are loaned for test purposes, or the loans soon stop happening.


But I also have a bit of a conceptual issue with medium-sized plasma displays such as the current test of the TC-P54V10. For my purposes and my tastes, medium plasma displays have little real purpose.


There really are two applications for video displays. One is a home theater application where you seek the "total immersion" experience where the display subtends a large angle of your vision. The optimal viewing distance for this 54" plasma display, based upon the HDGuru's seating chart, and the viewing guidelines from the SMPTE and THX are between 5 and 8 feet (approximately, the reccomendations are similar but not identical). At that rather close viewing distance, you could fit two people on a couch. Any more seats, and you have excessive geometric distortion from the viewing angles. Ideally, the two seats would be in the center of a surround sound "sweet spot". The room should ideally be in near total darkness to avoid distractions.


The second purpose of a video display is the simple, all-to-common occupation called "watching TV". This is a lesser level of interaction with the video and actually is but a part-time occupation, you can read or converse or nibble or even work. The basic parameter of "watching TV" is that you be further away and that the screen occupy a lesser area in your total view. This is a distinctly and different experience from the total immersion of a theater experience (commercial or home theater).


The "watching TV" experience requires a display with a native refresh rate compatible with 30Hz and 60Hz video materials. The only plasma technology that offers this capability is the (out of production) Pioneer Kuros with user-selectable 60Hz/72Hz refresh, and also 120Hz/240Hz LCD displays. Within these two choices there is room for a preference for LCD or Plasma. However the Panasonic HDTV model TC-P54V10 is a singularly POOR choice for "watching TV", it's fixed 72Hz refresh will compromise motion smoothness with video material that originates as 30Hz frame rates (1080i60) and 60Hz frame rates (720p60). As a Home Theater display, the TC-P54V10 is not a bad choice for up to two people on a couch, and provided all you want it for is watching 24Hz video sources. But the TC-P54V10 HDTV is a poor TV display.
 

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Gary I knew I could count on you to chime in with some talk about refresh rates
But,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy /forum/post/16915364


However the Panasonic HDTV model TC-P54V10 is a singularly POOR choice for "watching TV", it's fixed 72Hz refresh will compromise motion smoothness with video material that originates as 30Hz frame rates (1080i60) and 60Hz frame rates (720p60). As a Home Theater display, the TC-P54V10 is not a bad choice for up to two people on a couch, and provided all you want it for is watching 24Hz video sources. But the TC-P54V10 HDTV is a poor TV display.

Not sure where you got the idea that this TV has a fixed 72 Hz refresh rate. This TV has options for 48, 60, and 96 Hz. Quite clearly discussed in the linked review, and discussed ad nauseum in the 2009 anticipation thread and owner's thread.


jeff
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 /forum/post/16914241


I am glad to see the panny get a good review, but what I didn't get was how on earth he could (yet again) claim that It outperforms the 9G kuro.

We all know it doesn't according to the calibration charts.


They did this same thing with the G10. They claimed it was the best.

And also with the panny professional model.

I took it to mean it is the best of current production or best moving forward, excluding the 9g Pio's
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy /forum/post/16915364


The "watching TV" experience requires a display with a native refresh rate compatible with 30Hz and 60Hz video materials. The only plasma technology that offers this capability is the (out of production) Pioneer Kuros with user-selectable 60Hz/72Hz refresh, and also 120Hz/240Hz LCD displays. Within these two choices there is room for a preference for LCD or Plasma. However the Panasonic HDTV model TC-P54V10 is a singularly POOR choice for "watching TV", it's fixed 72Hz refresh will compromise motion smoothness with video material that originates as 30Hz frame rates (1080i60) and 60Hz frame rates (720p60). As a Home Theater display, the TC-P54V10 is not a bad choice for up to two people on a couch, and provided all you want it for is watching 24Hz video sources. But the TC-P54V10 HDTV is a poor TV display.

Wow.... I don't know where you pulled that bit of gross misinformation from, but the "native" refresh rate of the TC-P54V10 is 60Hz, as it is for just about every plasma sold in North America. 72Hz isn't available on this set. When viewing a 24p source, such as a BD movie, the user can adjust the refresh rate to 48, 60, or 96Hz.


Also, the kuro that you mentioned used a "native" refresh rate of 72Hz. For 60Hz content, it would do a reverse 3:2 pulldown.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjp /forum/post/16915721


Gary I knew I could count on you to chime in with some talk about refresh rates
But,


Not sure where you got the idea that this TV has a fixed 72 Hz refresh rate. This TV has options for 48, 60, and 96 Hz. Quite clearly discussed in the linked review, and discussed ad nauseum in the 2009 anticipation thread and owner's thread.


jeff

OK, I should not have skimmed the review so fast. But this TC-P54V10 Plasma (and last year's Kuro's) still lack compatibility with BOTH film at 24fps AND video at 30/60fps. That is, UNLESS the user sits there and switches back and forth between the 60Hz and 96Hz modes, every time the video feed changes. Because both film-source and video source materials are commonly used for video broadcasts, and the HDGuru does say that this set does a proper job of 3:2 pulldown from an ATSC broadcast stream.


I'm willing to guess that not many bother. Instead they accept compromised motion smoothness, either from video material when the set is refreshing at 96Hz, or film material when the set is refreshing at 60Hz. I am intimately familiar with this annoyance, I have to switch my Home Theater projector manually between 60Hz and 72Hz. It is a blessed relief from this annoyance when you own a display with 120Hz/240Hz refresh, which displays BOTH film and video with uncompromised motion smoothness.


What I did in my Home Theater was to define a macro that switches video modes with a minimum of fuss. What Panasonic needs to do is to assign a remote key to switch between film/video modes. Maybe they actually did that, but the review does not say so.
 

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Quote:
But this TC-P54V10 Plasma (and last year's Kuro's) still lack compatibility with BOTH film at 24fps AND video at 30/60fps. That is, UNLESS the user sits there and switches back and forth between the 60Hz and 96Hz modes, every time the video feed changes

Wrong. Kuros have four options available allowing the owner to decide how each signal type will be handled, and they can be set to automatically output a 24fps source at 72hz and 30/60fps sources at 60hz without further user intervention. The G10 that I played with seemed to work in a similar fashion, only locking in at 48hz (or 96hz with the V10) when a 24fps source was detected.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 /forum/post/16916005


Wrong. Kuros have four options available allowing the owner to decide how each signal type will be handled, and they can be set to automatically output a 24fps source at 72hz and 30/60fps sources at 60hz without further user intervention. The G10 that I played with seemed to work in a similar fashion, only locking in at 48hz (or 96hz with the V10) when a 24fps source was detected.

Correct. I have no idea where Gary'a pulling his misinformation from, but there is no need to toggle. 30/60 fps sources are displayed at 60Hz, and that's it. The V10 has a 24p Direct In setting for handing 24p content, where the user can set the refresh rate at 48, 60, or 96Hz. No toggling is required.


I'd like to touch on his assertion re: 120/240Hz LCDs though... it would be grossly naive to assume that just because a display refreshes at 120Hz that it is capable of 5:5 pulldown. Gary is well aware of this, as he's participated in threads discussing 3:2 pulldown in some 120Hz displays. LCD manufacturers have made alot of headway in implementing 5:5 pulldown this year, but it needs to be noted that there are still 120Hz displays that are only capable of 3:2.
 

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You do notice they are comparing an 8G kuro vs a 12g viera. I still think the 8g blows it away calibrated and the 9G knocks them all out silly with no competitor to step toe to toe with.
Funny thing is although the Panny is specified to have 96hz the Kuro is still much smoother with insane detail and color without flicker.
 

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I'm getting my information from the HDGuru review linked to in the first article. Quote:

"When fed a 24 Hz signal (movie film based content), from a Blu-ray player or (limited) DirecTV HD content, the V10 provides the option of choosing 48 Hz, 60 Hz or 96 Hz display." (Underline is mine.)


The meaning of this text is simply that the display refresh rates must be manually selected by the viewer. The display does not dynamicly switch refresh rates to adjust to the source frame rate. I understand the input-specific "Direct-In" setting allows you to select compatibility with a 24Hz disk player on a particular HDMI input - that's a usefull enhancement, but it DOES NOT MEAN that with a mixed film/video ATSC broadcast signal, the display refresh rate changes automaticly - it can only be changed by the viewer, and only when he recognizes the compromised motion on-screen. This problem exists in both Kuro and Panasonic TC-P54V10.


Furthermore, if the disk player is used for BOTH 24Hz Blu-Ray and conventional 60Hz DVDs, the "Direct In" setting on that input would have to be toggled between ON and OFF by the viewer manually - the same setting will not work for both. If you have one 24Hz player on one input and a 60Hz player on another, not a problem.


By contrast, a 120Hz or 240Hz LCD offers native display rate capability with both 24fps film source and 30/60Hz video, because these two display frame rates are integer multiples of all three source frame rates 24/30/60Hz. No manual refresh rate switching by the user is required.


When it comes to correct 3:2 pulldown (which is a test that the HD Guru has been running for as long as he has published) any set rated with a "Pass" in this category can recognize the 2:3 pattern of film source frames within the 60Hz broadcast signal and use the 3:2 pulldown feature to reconstruct the original 24fps source video signal. What happens next depends upon the display. On a 120Hz or 240Hz LCD video display, nothing needs to happen, because the native frame rate allows an even display of source frames (5:5 or 10:10).


YES I know of older 120Hz displays which do not perform 5:5 correctly. None remain in current production. Early 120Hz displays decreased black levels with a technique called BFI (Black Frame Insertion) but handled video exactly as did 60Hz displays - no possibility of smooth motion with 24fps source - in fact in that generation of display, no 24Hz source compatibility.


The two LCD technology leaders Sony and Samsung have typically shipped HDTVs where 3:2 pulldown worked and 5:5 display worked. Samsung unfortunately went through a period in early 2008 when this was not true, several models shipped right after the switch from the Micronas frame rate converters used in the 2007 Samsung models to the Samsung in-house frame rate converter chipset. But by mid-2008 this was corrected on new designs. Sony has always been good with this featrure AFAIK.
 
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