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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In an ongoing discussion I'm having with the folks over in the DISPLAYS side of the forum, I am now being told that NO MATTER WHAT HDMI RESOLUTION I SET THE PANNY '10A TO, THE SONY SXRD SET I HAVE IS GOING TO DISPLAY 1080p BECAUSE IT IS A FIXED PANEL DISPLAY....is this so?


This concerns me because I don't even know what resolution my set is seeing/displaying anymore; I normally keep the HDMI RESOLUTION of the '10A on AUTO, which then sends my SXRD set a 1080p signal -- confirmed by the DISPLAY button of the Sony...but now I'm being told that if I keep the HDMI resolution to, say, 480p because of noise and artifact problems I am having with DVDs scaled to 1080p, the TV is STILL going to convert that to 1080p -- so either the PLAYER is doing the conversion or the TV is, but either way, 1080 is being DISPLAYED by the TV...


Now what should the resolution be on? Should I keep it on AUTO, which sends the set 1080p? Or should I use 1080p JUST for watching Blu-rays? And if the SET says it's RECEIVING 1080p, does that also mean that the player AND TV are BOTH giving 1080p???
 

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In a nutshell, yes. Fixed panel displays have a fixed resolution and will display at that resolution irregardless of what resolution is fed to them. Your TV is taking 480p and upscaling. I don't own either device so I can't speak for the settings.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE /forum/post/12862855


In an ongoing discussion I'm having with the folks over in the DISPLAYS side of the forum, I am now being told that NO MATTER WHAT HDMI RESOLUTION I SET THE PANNY '10A TO, THE SONY SXRD SET I HAVE IS GOING TO DISPLAY 1080p BECAUSE IT IS A FIXED PANEL DISPLAY....is this so?


This concerns me because I don't even know what resolution my set is seeing/displaying anymore; I normally keep the HDMI RESOLUTION of the '10A on AUTO, which then sends my SXRD set a 1080p signal -- confirmed by the DISPLAY button of the Sony...but now I'm being told that if I keep the HDMI resolution to, say, 480p because of noise and artifact problems I am having with DVDs scaled to 1080p, the TV is STILL going to convert that to 1080p -- so either the PLAYER is doing the conversion or the TV is, but either way, 1080 is being DISPLAYED by the TV...


Now what should the resolution be on? Should I keep it on AUTO, which sends the set 1080p? Or should I use 1080p JUST for watching Blu-rays? And if the SET says it's RECEIVING 1080p, does that also mean that the player AND TV are BOTH giving 1080p???

1) The SXRD is a fixed pixel display with a native resolution of 1080p. Any incoming signal must ultimately be scaled up to this resolution for display, either by the source device or the set's internal scaler.


2) I would leave the output of your BD10a to either 'Auto' or '1080p'. The 'Auto' setting determines the highest resolution your display can accept and sets the BD10a output to that. If you set the HDMI output to 480p, Blu-Rays will be downscaled to 480p by the player, and then scaled back to 1080p by the display. Not a desirable setting.


3) If you go into the 'Video' settings on the BD10a while you have a DVD playing, you can customize the 'User' settings specifically for DVD playback. The BD10a keeps two 'Video' settings, one for Blu-Ray and one for DVD playback, so you can tweak both to look their best over 1080p output. A far easier option than switching the HDMI resolution back and forth for each format.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide /forum/post/12862902


In a nutshell, yes. Fixed panel displays have a fixed resolution and will display at that resolution irregardless of what resolution is fed to them. Your TV is taking 480p and upscaling. I don't own either device so I can't speak for the settings.

So then WHAT HDMI setting do I leave the player on for DVD playback -- if 480p is going up to 1080p automatically by the TV, then during DVD playback should I just leave the HDMI resolution at 1080p or AUTO? What exactly is this doing if the signal is going from the PLAYER at 1080p to the TV which is ALSO making it 1080p?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE /forum/post/12863256


What exactly is this doing if the signal is going from the PLAYER at 1080p to the TV which is ALSO making it 1080p?

umm...nothing?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE /forum/post/12863256


So then WHAT HDMI setting do I leave the player on for DVD playback -- if 480p is going up to 1080p automatically by the TV, then during DVD playback should I just leave the HDMI resolution at 1080p or AUTO? What exactly is this doing if the signal is going from the PLAYER at 1080p to the TV which is ALSO making it 1080p?

First, calm down. Nothing is wrong. Second, the fact that your TV is fixed pixel and will only output 1080p does not mean it will not accept anything but a 1080p source. Third, any "Display" button that gives picture info is going to tell you the resolution of the source coming in, not the resolution of the display itself. It would be pretty useless to always display "1080p" regardless of the incoming format, right?


So in short, you are fine. Your player is outputting 1080p and your display is handling it fine. Take a breath, relax and watch a film.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by joffer /forum/post/12863348


umm...nothing?

So Joffer,


Are you saying that if my PLAYER is sending the HDMI as AUTO -- which converts to 1080p output (according to the message Im getting onscreen) -- and my SXRD is fixed at 1080p, NO CONVERSION of any kind is going on?


But let me see if I got this right....standard DVD signal is 480i, correct? This is being "upscaled" to 1080p by the PLAYER then if set to that resolution in the player, right? And then that UPSCALED signal is sent to the TV which just SEES it as 1080p?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE /forum/post/12863517


So Joffer,


Are you saying that if my PLAYER is sending the HDMI as AUTO -- which converts to 1080p output (according to the message Im getting onscreen) -- and my SXRD is fixed at 1080p, NO CONVERSION of any kind is going on?


But let me see if I got this right....standard DVD signal is 480i, correct? This is being "upscaled" to 1080p by the PLAYER then if set to that resolution in the player, right? And then that UPSCALED signal is sent to the TV which just SEES it as 1080p?

You got it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgatie /forum/post/12863502


First, calm down. Nothing is wrong. Second, the fact that your TV is fixed pixel and will only output 1080p does not mean it will not accept anything but a 1080p source. Third, any "Display" button that gives picture info is going to tell you the resolution of the source coming in, not the resolution of the display itself. It would be pretty useless to always display "1080p" regardless of the incoming format, right?


So in short, you are fine. Your player is outputting 1080p and your display is handling it fine. Take a breath, relax and watch a film.

I understand what you're saying regarding the display always reading 1080p when there's a different source coming in, but I don't think you're understanding the dilemmas I am talking about here...


If I play a STANDARD DEF DVD (which is 480i by nature, right?) and I have the player set to 480p, this seems to "clean up" some of the junk I see in the picture when leaving the set at 1080p and running a DVD...but by leaving the HDMI resolution at 480p for DVD video, what exactly is happening here? Is the player sending the actual 480p where the TV simply DISPLAYS it at 480p, or is the TV actually UPSCALING that signal to 1080p? Now, going the other way, if I leave the HDMI resolution on AUTO, or 1080p, and play a DVD, is the player doing the advertised "video upconversion" and sending THAT to the TV? If so, what does the TV do with the signal then....re-scale to 1080 once more?


If both the PLAYER and TV are doing 1080 and I watch a Blu-ray disc, the plain 1080p signal is passing to the TV unaltered because it's a "fixed panel" display?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE /forum/post/12863579


I understand what you're saying regarding the display always reading 1080p when there's a different source coming in, but I don't think you're understanding the dilemmas I am talking about here...


If I play a STANDARD DEF DVD (which is 480i by nature, right?) and I have the player set to 480p, this seems to "clean up" some of the junk I see in the picture when leaving the set at 1080p and running a DVD...but by leaving the HDMI resolution at 480p for DVD video, what exactly is happening here? Is the player sending the actual 480p where the TV simply DISPLAYS it at 480p, or is the TV actually UPSCALING that signal to 1080p? Now, going the other way, if I leave the HDMI resolution on AUTO, or 1080p, and play a DVD, is the player doing the advertised "video upconversion" and sending THAT to the TV? If so, what does the TV do with the signal then....re-scale to 1080 once more?


If both the PLAYER and TV are doing 1080 and I watch a Blu-ray disc, the plain 1080p signal is passing to the TV unaltered because it's a "fixed panel" display?

In the first scenario, your display is scaling the 480p to 1080p. In the second, your player is doing the scaling and your TV is doing nothing.


I think what you are not getting is your TV will scale and/or deinterlace all sources that are not 1080p. It can't do anything but, because the pixels are fixed at 1080 and the refresh rate is fixed as progressive. Why do you see a better picture with the player at 480p? Well it seems your TV may be better at scaling than your player. That happens sometimes.


In the case of watching BD, neither is scaling because the source is 1080p
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jgatie /forum/post/12863631


In the first scenario, your display is scaling the 480p to 1080p. In the second, your player is doing the scaling and your TV is doing nothing.


I think what you are not getting is your TV will scale and/or deinterlace all sources that are not 1080p. It can't do anything but, because the pixels are fixed at 1080 and the refresh rate is fixed as progressive. Why do you see a better picture with the player at 480p? Well it seems your TV may be better at scaling than your player. That happens sometimes.


In the case of watching BD, neither is scaling because the source is 1080p

One member had suggested leaving the HDMI resolution at AUTO -- which would send everything 1080 to the screen -- and then adjusting the video for DVD and Blu-ray separately with those "User" settings but they have been completely useless from my experience; tweaking and fooling around with the Gamma, Color, 3D Noise Reduction...it usually just makes a mess of the video so I just leave it on NORMAL....but based on this, should I just leave the dosh garn HDMI output of the player on AUTO, which will send 1080p upconverted (for DVDs) while sending true 1080 for Blu-ray?
 

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i'm no expert on the panny BD10, but i have an 70XBR2 display.


unless the BD player has a realta or reon chip that is implemented properly, i'm thinking the display is your better option for upscaling SD DVD's.


let your own eyes decide which image is better.
 

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Blu you are making this WAY MORE difficult than it has to be.

First rule of fixed panel displays: A fixed panel display (like your HDTV) will always display EVERYTHING at it's native resolution (in this case 1080p). It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a fixed panel display to display at anything but it's fixed resolution.


Another way to look at it. Your HDTV is a grid of 1920 dots going across and 1080 dots going up and down (about 2 million dots or pixels total). Those dots will always be there. It doesn't matter if you feed it a 480i signal from a DVD, a 720p signal from a STB, or a 1080p signal from a BD your HDTV can't physically change from anything other than a grid of 1920 x 1080 pixels.


If you don't understand the first rule of fixed panel displays read it again before going on.



Now since your HDTV will always display 1080p if the source is less than 1080p it will be upconverted, always. It is impossible for a 480i source to be shown as 480i on your HDTV. So since the signal will always be upconverted you have three choices:


1) Leave your BD player on 1080p (or auto which will detect 1080p). The BD player will upconvert 480i DVD -> 1080p. Your HDTV will take the 1080p signal and display it. The problem is as you have seen the Panny BD10 & BD 30 (& likely BD50) blow chunks when it comes to upconverting. This is the simplest choice, always leave it on 1080p but you will have lower SD DVD quality.


2) Switch the Panny to 480p (not sure if there is a 480i mode) for SD DVD. The BD player will output 480p and your HDTV will upconvert it to 1080p. Likely your expensive HDTV has a better scaler so it will look better. When you watch BD you will want the output to be 1080p so you will need to manually switch back and forth. It's kind of a pain would be nice if Panny had a "smart mode" = 480p for DVD, 1080p for BD but they don't. One more time your HDTV isn't displaying 480p it is still displaying 1080p. The only difference between #1 and #2 is in #1 the BD player does the upconverting, in #2 the HDTV does the upconverting. It is not possible for your HDTV to display a 480p image.


3) Buy a separate upconvert DVD player use the DVD for DVD and BD for BD. Since no matter what 100% of the time all sources will be displayed as 1080p on your HDTV the better the upconversion the better it will look. Oppo makes some nice entry level upconverters. Anything less than an Oppo is generally not worth it because your HDTV will do a better job upconverting than the player can. Upconverter DVD run from $200 Oppo up to $3000 Denon. Right now the "hot" upconverter chips the Reon & Realta.


One more time: No matter what DVD will always be 480i and your display will always be 1080p. Something (player, AVR, dedicated scaler, HDTV) will need to upconvert the signal.


Likely you never would have noticed this except for some reason Panny decided to use their "special" $1.99 scaler handled upconversion. I have the Panny BD30 and it is straight garbage. I think my $80 Sony from 3 years ago did a better job. My HD-XA2 is light years ahead of this player in terms of upconversion.
 

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along those lines, if the BD50 isn't in the reon-realta class with SD DVD upconversion, i'm out. i'll be waiting on the denon 3800 and the pioneer elites.
 

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Your TV can only display 1080p. If you want to watch something that's not 1080p, like a SD DVD for example, either the player does the scaling to 1080 or the TV does. If you send the TV a signal other than 1080 then it will do the scaling automatically. Usually the scaler in an upconverting player is much better than the one that comes with your TV so it's best to set the player to 1080p.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpy27 /forum/post/12864582


I would suggest that you set the player to 480P and 1080P for SD DVD's and see which picture you prefer on your Sony.

Jumpy, this doesn't make any sense...
 

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"The problem is as you have seen the Panny BD10 & BD 30 (& likely BD50) blow chunks when it comes to upconverting. This is the simplest choice, always leave it on 1080p but you will have lower SD DVD quality."


This is incorrect. As tested by Kris Deering, the scaling of the National Semiconductor chip in the BD10A is quite good. I have an XA2 and a BD10 and the BD10 is almost as good at playing SD-DVDs.


The BD30 is a different story, from what I hear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Blu you are making this WAY MORE difficult than it has to be.


Not in my eyes...I can't even figure out if my screen ACCEPTS a 1080p OUTBOARD source...

First rule of fixed panel displays: A fixed panel display (like your HDTV) will always display EVERYTHING at it's native resolution (in this case 1080p). It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a fixed panel display to display at anything but it's fixed resolution.


I didn't know that, the salesperson didn't tell me that and all this time I have been operating this set without realizing that...off the wall, huh? Well, welcome to my world. All this time, I THOUGHT I WAS GETTING 480p OUT OF MY DVDs BY LEAVING THE PLAYER AT 480p VIA HDMI...

Another way to look at it. Your HDTV is a grid of 1920 dots going across and 1080 dots going up and down (about 2 million dots or pixels total). Those dots will always be there. It doesn't matter if you feed it a 480i signal from a DVD, a 720p signal from a STB, or a 1080p signal from a BD your HDTV can't physically change from anything other than a grid of 1920 x 1080 pixels.


Okay; makes sense. The only problem is, as I have been saying, is that I thought NO MATTER WHAT -- this screen could ACCEPT and DISPLAY a resolution UP TO AND INCLUDING 1080p -- I DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS DISPLAYING 1080p ALL THE TIME...and, once again, the problem comes into play whereby I WANT 480p video to be streamed from this player so I can drop the video noise issues I am experiencing with upscaling to 1080p via regular DVD. What you're telling me here is that EVEN IF I switch to component out from this player, I will STILL NEVER GET 480p video to this screen...


Now since your HDTV will always display 1080p if the source is less than 1080p it will be upconverted, always. It is impossible for a 480i source to be shown as 480i on your HDTV. So since the signal will always be upconverted you have three choices:


Right...I understand this now. I'm beginning to wish I didn't buy an HDTV screen.

1) Leave your BD player on 1080p (or auto which will detect 1080p). The BD player will upconvert 480i DVD -> 1080p. Your HDTV will take the 1080p signal and display it. The problem is as you have seen the Panny BD10 & BD 30 (& likely BD50) blow chunks when it comes to upconverting. This is the simplest choice, always leave it on 1080p but you will have lower SD DVD quality.


Indeed, sir, indeed....BLOWS CHUNKS is the most appropriate way of describing what this player is doing with standard DVD signals outside of using extreme vulgarities...

2) Switch the Panny to 480p (not sure if there is a 480i mode) for SD DVD.


There is no mode for 480i.

The BD player will output 480p and your HDTV will upconvert it to 1080p. Likely your expensive HDTV has a better scaler so it will look better. When you watch BD you will want the output to be 1080p so you will need to manually switch back and forth. It's kind of a pain would be nice if Panny had a "smart mode" = 480p for DVD, 1080p for BD but they don't. One more time your HDTV isn't displaying 480p it is still displaying 1080p. The only difference between #1 and #2 is in #1 the BD player does the upconverting, in #2 the HDTV does the upconverting. It is not possible for your HDTV to display a 480p image.



Right....got it now (if you're assessment is accurate)...the issue is this, with number two though: when I switch to 480p output on the player and run a DVD (which would mean the TV is doing the upconverting according to you) the image gets a TAD TAD BIT CLEANER than leaving the PLAYER to do the upscaling -- but it sure as hell doesn't look fantastically better -- in fact, the image gets LESS SHARP than letting the PLAYER do the upconverting.


This phenomenon was what I was thinking all along was me getting actual 480p video from the player, so the image looked better than upscaled 1080p...

3) Buy a separate upconvert DVD player use the DVD for DVD and BD for BD. Since no matter what 100% of the time all sources will be displayed as 1080p on your HDTV the better the upconversion the better it will look. Oppo makes some nice entry level upconverters. Anything less than an Oppo is generally not worth it because your HDTV will do a better job upconverting than the player can. Upconverter DVD run from $200 Oppo up to $3000 Denon. Right now the "hot" upconverter chips the Reon & Realta.


I considered doing this, as I started a thread on this in the DVD Players section of the forum -- is there a model from either Oppo or Denon that you would recommend? I would STILL rather have ONE player that does Blu ray and DVD, so perhaps you can also suggest a Blu-ray deck that has good (at least decent) DVD upconversion and covers BITSTREAMING of all the new surround codecs?

One more time: No matter what DVD will always be 480i and your display will always be 1080p. Something (player, AVR, dedicated scaler, HDTV) will need to upconvert the signal.


Got it now, but very dissapointing for my needs. Can I ask you this...could my ONKYO RECEIVER be degrading this signal somewhere? I have the Blu ray player going to the receiver's HDMI IN, and then HDMI OUT from the receiver going to the TV....

Likely you never would have noticed this except for some reason Panny decided to use their "special" $1.99 scaler handled upconversion. I have the Panny BD30 and it is straight garbage. I think my $80 Sony from 3 years ago did a better job. My HD-XA2 is light years ahead of this player in terms of upconversion.


Indeed....I am beginning to realize the garbage that Panasonic put in this player for upconversion...


Thanks very much for your continued help on this. It is appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman /forum/post/12871537


"The problem is as you have seen the Panny BD10 & BD 30 (& likely BD50) blow chunks when it comes to upconverting. This is the simplest choice, always leave it on 1080p but you will have lower SD DVD quality."


This is incorrect. As tested by Kris Deering, the scaling of the National Semiconductor chip in the BD10A is quite good. I have an XA2 and a BD10 and the BD10 is almost as good at playing SD-DVDs.


The BD30 is a different story, from what I hear.

As indicated by many, many enthusiasts around here, the '10A completely SUCKS in terms of upconversion...


Do you have the custom user settings running for the '10A when watching DVDs? Can you share the settings if you are? I keep mine on NORMAL for picture mode....
 
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