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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Everyone


This is my first post here but I've visited here several times in the past. Especially when looking at (and getting ) the Panny ES-10. I've now started to give a try at PC burning and authoring sice I'd like to go the RAM to DVD-R route. Upon recommendations from several forums I downloaded trial version of TDA and gave it a go. So far I've been impressed with the ease of use, time to do, and the quality output. I do have a few questions.


(1) While I let TDA do the whole "rip & burn" with the 'Videpo_TS" file deal I was wondering if ISO is any better? I noticed that in the final stage at the top there's "ISO-DVD" and "Create ISO File" buttons. I've read a post here about TDA and someone mentioned they have TDA convert but have DVD Decrypter do the burn. I take it hit "Create ISO" and then have DVDD find the file and do the burn? Of course why ISO over Video_TS to begin with?


(2) While I've been impressed so far with TDA's output I'm wondering about a "audio volume" issue. I've read and heard that when recording HD shows (HBO and SHO on DISH) that the volume levels are lower than normal. Now is there something in the Dish rec'r, Panny ES-10 or TDA that I can boost the volume up. When I played the DVD-R disc I had to turn the volume up (12 to 14) spots on the dial than normal. I know I don't have the "AC-3" plug-in with the trial version but does it make any real difference? By the way no "sync" problems like some have had either.


Thanks for your time and suggestions on this.


Kenny J.
 

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I can answer 1):

The TDA burner works just fine without converting the VIDEO_TS folder to an .ISO file. I use it whenever I'm burning my project to a DVD-RW.


The advantage of using DVD Decrypter to do the burn is that it has a verify cycle that follows the burn. I find that useful and comforting so I use Decrypter to do all my permanent burns onto DVD-R. Having said that, DVD Decrypter only burns .ISO files so that is why you have to package the VIDEO_TS folder as an .ISO to use Decrypter.


You said you were going to "go the RAM to DVD-R route". If you are going to use a PC with TDA you don't have to use RAM with the ES-10 -- you can save some money and go with RW. Depending on you PC setup, this means you won't have to buy a DVD-RAM compatible burner and can use cheaper -RW media which goes for
 

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For the burning after TDA authoring, I'm using ImgTool Burn, a freeware utility that has the verify option and does read VIDEO_TS folders. I prefer to create the VIDEO_TS folder because I can view the results before burning to check menu function and look. There seem to be a lot more options for controlling the burning process in ImgTool Burn than Decrypter's burner. There are links in the videohelp.com site.


I have now added a new step. I use another utility called CD Check (shareware with a free license for individual users) to verify the burned and verified disc is OK. I had one disc that passed the verify process but glitched in one of my players. I ran CD Check and found read errors so I had to redo the process.


I am thinking of buying an E-10 now that I am doing more editing on the PC, particularly because of the -RW capability. (I have a lot of orphaned -RW discs now that my Pioneer stopped recognizing them.) I'll still use my E-85 and E-95 for most of the simpler editing tasks, but adding the better resolution at LP mode for a lot less money than a new HDD model could be useful.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnycrest
For the burning after TDA authoring, I'm using ImgTool Burn, a freeware utility that has the verify option and does read VIDEO_TS folders. I prefer to create the VIDEO_TS folder because I can view the results before burning to check menu function and look. There seem to be a lot more options for controlling the burning process in ImgTool Burn than Decrypter's burner. There are links in the videohelp.com site.


I have now added a new step. I use another utility called CD Check (shareware with a free license for individual users) to verify the burned and verified disc is OK. I had one disc that passed the verify process but glitched in one of my players. I ran CD Check and found read errors so I had to redo the process.
Thanks for the pointer to these apps, sunny. I'll check them out -- I like free.
 

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sunnycrest,

I was reading one of your posts in another thread and I realized I forgot to mention an important point. I'll post it here because it pertains to the OP as well.


If you go the ES-10 route for PC editing like the OP, not only can you avoid RAM -- you need to avoid RAM. As has been noted in other current threads, the ES-10 can't be set to HS dub mode which means the video is recorded in VR mode to RAM with variable resolution. This variable resolution necessitates a re-encode to make it into DVD-Video. Aside from the hit to PQ, TDA has no encoders and is reported to choke on these files.
 

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kelson, I forgot to mention that ImgTool Burn uses the Nero burning engine, so you'll have to have Nero present on the machine. I sometimes incorrectly assume everyone at least has Nero installed even if they don't use all the tools.


I knew the lack of HS dubbing flags with the ES-10 but thanks for the tip on the VR mode and re-encoding issues.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson
As has been noted in other current threads, the ES-10 can't be set to HS dub mode which means the video is recorded in VR mode to RAM with variable resolution. This variable resolution necessitates a re-encode to make it into DVD-Video. Aside from the hit to PQ, TDA has no encoders and is reported to choke on these files.
While its clear that VR mode files recorded on a non-HDD recorder cannot be subsequently high speed dubbed to DVD-R in the EH50 (or any other Panny HDD DVD recorder), I do not think its true that the programs on the ES10 are recorded with variable resolution. Note that none of the 2005 Panny recorders (including the EH50) have the Hybrid VBR menu setting any longer. Frankly, its not required since Panny has revised its encoder to allow recording up to 4 hours (LP mode) in full Broadcast D1 resolution (704X480). My experence with the EH50 indicates that Panny Hybrid VBR mode is a thing of the past. So this issue is no longer a concern for TDA.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
While its clear that VR mode files recorded on a non-HDD recorder cannot be subsequently high speed dubbed to DVD-R in the EH50 (or any other Panny HDD DVD recorder), I do not think its true that the programs on the ES10 are recorded with variable resolution. Note that none of the 2005 Panny recorders (including the EH50) have the Hybrid VBR menu setting any longer. Frankly, its not required since Panny has revised its encoder to allow recording up to 4 hours (LP mode) in full Broadcast D1 resolution (704X480). My experence with the EH50 indicates that Panny Hybrid VBR mode is a thing of the past. So this issue is no longer a concern for TDA.
Quite interesting information. Makes it even MORE bizarre that you can't hs dub these files if they aren't actually vbr.
 

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Vic, isn't hybrid VBR = variable bit rate. That is distinct from variable resolution which is what the HS flag keys in. This was discussed a long time ago, so I can't remember the threads. Anyway the default is for variable resolution to allow for higher bit rates during action scenes. This is allowed for VR mode so the RAMs can HS dub both ways no matter what the setting on the DVDR. DVD-Video is single resolution so the variable resolution needs to be re-encoded. TDA chokes on any files that are not single resolution video mode or VR mode.


Doesn't the EH50 have a setting to select HS dub to -R/W.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson
Vic, isn't hybrid VBR = variable bit rate.
Not exactly. As you know, all Panasonic recorders (as well as most other brands) ALWAYS use variable bit rate encoding, with the average bit rate determined by the selected recording mode (XP, SP, LP, etc.). I should have called it by its proper name, that is: Hybrid VBR Resolution. This is Pansonic's euphemism for their variable resolution encoding scheme that was meant to trade resolution at a given average variable bit rate to minimize macroblocking during high motion/high contrast scenes. It seems that since Panasonic has gone to Broadcast D1 resolution for LP mode, Hybrid VBR Resolution does not make sense any longer and has effectively been retired. The threads you are recalling had to do with the PRE-2005 recorders in which having hybrid vbr resolution in AUTO caused incompatiblity problems with TDA and the like. Setting High Speed Compatibility mode to on set Hybrid VBR to FIXED and resolved the issue but you also could set he Hybrid VBR Resolution setting in the menu to FIXED as well (independent of High Speed Compatiblity Mode). Since HYBRID VBR is no longer used, I frankly can't see why High Speed Compatibility mode should not be the default flag for all the Panny recorders (including those w/o a HDD).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I still have these questions....


(1) So if I want to still use DVD Decrypter to burn I use the "Create ISO" button and let DVDD find and burn the files? I'll look into IMGTool as well. I have DVDD, DVD Shrink, Nero (oem bundled with the LG 4163b DVD burner), and TDA.


(2) And what about the "AC-3" plug-in? Does it make a difference in sound quality? With Tusanmi product the AC-3 plug-in it's built in. In the TMPGEnc products it's separate and & extra $$$.


(3) Can or do do use another program to "sharpen & soften" the image before burning? I know something like "Shrink" has a "shapen/soften" feature. Not that I'm unhappy but I wasn't sure if any TMPGEnc products do that or you recommend something else. I've got lots of VHS tapes so I'll put them in RAM, edit in the ES-10 and author in TDA. They may have some "static" and minor artifacts that need cleaning up.



Thanks again for your help.


Kenny J.
 

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Kenny, regarding the AC-3 plug-in for TDA. To hear the audio while you are editing in TDA, you will need the plug-in.

While I was using the trial version of TDA without the plug-in, I was editing some old discs recorded on a LiteOn machine which didn't use Dolby, it used MPEG audio. I could hear that audio but I could not hear the audio on discs recorded on the Panasonic. I now use the Tsunami product purchased from MicroCenter which included the plug-in and is the same product you would download from the web site. I hear audio from discs from the LiteOn and from the Pannys.

The Easy Pack version is the crippled product. It does not support menu editing which was my whole purpose in using TDA.
 

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Vic, so to summarize, I should be able record on the E-10 to either -RW or -RAM and be able to edit in TDA. Since my work will be done on the PC where I control the burn speed, I wouldn't care that the HS dubbing flag is not present???
 

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Does TMP offer titiling? I couldn't see that option. I would like to add subtitles in the middle of what I'm editing


Another question: When I record on -RW, should I finalize? I assume the answer is no because that would prevent me from erasing the disc. When I took the unfinalized disc to my computer, it couldn't find any files (it treated the disc like a rewriteable CD). The DVD player says it supports RW. Any idea what the problem is?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
Not exactly. As you know, all Panasonic recorders (as well as most other brands) ALWAYS use variable bit rate encoding, with the average bit rate determined by the selected recording mode (XP, SP, LP, etc.). I should have called it by its proper name, that is: Hybrid VBR Resolution. This is Pansonic's euphemism for their variable resolution encoding scheme that was meant to trade resolution at a given average variable bit rate to minimize macroblocking during high motion/high contrast scenes. It seems that since Panasonic has gone to Broadcast D1 resolution for LP mode, Hybrid VBR Resolution does not make sense any longer and has effectively been retired. The threads you are recalling had to do with the PRE-2005 recorders in which having hybrid vbr resolution in AUTO caused incompatiblity problems with TDA and the like. Setting High Speed Compatibility mode to on set Hybrid VBR to FIXED and resolved the issue but you also could set he Hybrid VBR Resolution setting in the menu to FIXED as well (independent of High Speed Compatiblity Mode). Since HYBRID VBR is no longer used, I frankly can't see why High Speed Compatibility mode should not be the default flag for all the Panny recorders (including those w/o a HDD).
OK, I can't argue further. Not having an ES-10 or EH-50, I have reached the limits of my information. What remains is the experiment. Let someone with an ES-10 (or an EH-50 with HS-dub turned off) record a source with lots of action onto RAM; show that it can be HS-dubbed to a HDD unit but not HS-dubbed to DVD-R; then over to the PC to see if TDA imports it or chokes.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DR.DTS
I still have these questions....


(1) So if I want to still use DVD Decrypter to burn I use the "Create ISO" button and let DVDD find and burn the files? I'll look into IMGTool as well. I have DVDD, DVD Shrink, Nero (oem bundled with the LG 4163b DVD burner), and TDA.


(2) And what about the "AC-3" plug-in? Does it make a difference in sound quality? With Tusanmi product the AC-3 plug-in it's built in. In the TMPGEnc products it's separate and & extra $$$.


(3) Can or do do use another program to "sharpen & soften" the image before burning? I know something like "Shrink" has a "shapen/soften" feature. Not that I'm unhappy but I wasn't sure if any TMPGEnc products do that or you recommend something else. I've got lots of VHS tapes so I'll put them in RAM, edit in the ES-10 and author in TDA. They may have some "static" and minor artifacts that need cleaning up.



Thanks again for your help.


Kenny J.
(1) The output of TDA is a VIDEO_TS folder with files in DVD-Video format. Clicking the Create ISO button in the TDA burn module creates a package of those files in a single file (.ISO) that is laid out exactly as it would be burned onto the disk by TDA. It is an image of a DVD-Video disk. DVDDcr simply takes that file and burns it directly to disk, then goes back and does a verify of the burn. Using DVDDcr adds an extra step that I would gladly skip if the TDA burning module had a verify cycle.


(2) As noted, recordings from the Panasonic are already in AC-3 format (unless you choose LPCM for XP mode). The audio plugin has no use to you (or me for that matter) for it's encoding capability but they make you buy the darn thing just to hear what you are editing.


(3) Shrink is a transcoder. It will re-encode your video stream to lower the bitrate to shrink down the file size so it will fit on a single layer DVD-R. That soften/sharpen option is a control for the re-encoding process (how you want it to manipulate the bits). TDA does no encoding to lower the PQ so soften/sharpen type processing is not available. You can probably find an encoder somewhere that will give you control like that over the process -- I just don't have one off the top of my head.
 

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rsingleton and kenny, If you want to intentionally alter the video like changing the look of the picture through blurring, sharpening, softening, color shifting or adding titling, you will need to use an editor something like Womble, a product that you use on the mpg2 file prior to bringing it into an authoring product like TDA. The 116 page user manual for the Womble Video Wizard product is downloadable from their web site as is a 30 day full featured trial version. I have become more comfortable with it and may elect to buy the full version when the trial is over.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnycrest
Vic, so to summarize, I should be able record on the E-10 to either -RW or -RAM and be able to edit in TDA. Since my work will be done on the PC where I control the burn speed, I wouldn't care that the HS dubbing flag is not present???


Yes, whether the HS flag is set doesn't matter for PC based authoring to DVD-R, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson
OK, I can't argue further. Not having an ES-10 or EH-50, I have reached the limits of my information. What remains is the experiment. Let someone with an ES-10 (or an EH-50 with HS-dub turned off) record a source with lots of action onto RAM; show that it can be HS-dubbed to a HDD unit but not HS-dubbed to DVD-R; then over to the PC to see if TDA imports it or chokes.
Actually, I found that if you use Panasonic's MovieAlbum software to export titles off of a DVD-RAM that have "random" resolution changes due to hybrid vbr resolution treatment to a PC's HDD, you will get a separate mpg file for each segment that has a different resolution, so that's pretty much a dead giveaway right there. I'll try an experiment this weekend with my EH50 recording a pre-season football game or similar with high speed mode disabled to see if I get any telltale random resolution changes but I suspect its futile since even LP is 704x480 so what would it "downshift" to (EP resolution 352x240? or 352x480 which is no longer associated with any specific record mode...). It would be interesting for curiosity's sake to see when LP resolution down shifts (4+ hours) and to what resolution it downshifts to.
 
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