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Discussion Starter #201
Hi,

I don't think that anyone wants you to keep the PB4000, if you think that it's too much of a headache for too little return. But what you seem to be saying now is significantly different from what I thought you were saying before. Apparently, you aren't lacking bass, you are just lacking mid-bass. That may very well be a placement issue. It is also entirely possible that your previous subwoofer, while not playing the very low-frequencies that I assume you bought the PB4000 for, had a peak that you liked in the mid-bass. Perhaps it was distorted sound, but that can be harder to identify with bass frequencies. Louder distorted bass, may just sound louder, until we get used to hearing undistorted sound.

I still think that having Dave there to measure your frequency response will help a lot. You may have some cancellation occurring in the mid-bass which is knocking down the volume. Until and unless he does that, though, there are some things you can try to enhance your mid-bass. One of them is to run your subwoofer in the all ports open 20Hz mode, if you are currently running it in the one port Extended mode. That will increase the mid-bass slightly relative to the low-bass. You should rerun Audyssey if you change the port tune, and don't forget to change to Standard mode in the sub's DSP.

Second, you can go into the subwoofer's digital menu and set some pre-programmed PEQ to add a 2+db boost centered on 63Hz. That frequency is sort of the sweet spot for mid-bass. Third, you can implement cascading crossovers, which are explained in detail in a section of the Guide that I am giving you a direct link to below. That will take you about 5 minutes to implement, and it will also concentrate more SPL in the mid-bass range. Doing all three of those things will give you relatively much more mid-bass. Perhaps too much, but you can be the judge of that. If you have down-loaded the Audyssey app, you may be able to add even more mid-bass if you want to.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences.html#IIIC

One of the advantages of the subwoofer you have now is it's versatility. It is a low-frequency specialist. But, if you know what you are doing, you can also enhance it's mid-bass capabilities. If it turns out that you are experiencing some cancellation in the mid-bass range, which Dave's measurements can determine, there will be several things you can try, including moving the subwoofer slightly or adjusting it's distance or its phase setting. But, you won't know about that until you measure the sub's performance in the room.

If, after everything, it's really still not giving you as much mid-bass as you want relative to the low-bass, then I would buy a subwoofer which emphasizes the mid-bass more, relative to the low-bass. The PSA V3611 should be perfect for you, in that case, or perhaps the JTR Cap 118HT. Both subwoofers would give you relatively more mid-bass than the PB4000, and they would be much better subwoofers than the HSU you were considering. But, I would try the other suggestions first. You have already got the subwoofer in your room. You may as well find out what it can do, and learn a little bit more about what frequencies you really like the most, in the process. :)

Regards,
Mike
Definitely willing to put the work in on the sub, if it isn't evident by how long this thread is. I have positioned, re-positioned, and ran Audyssey at least 20 times. To say the least, my wife hasn't been happy with me the last couple of weeks.

I will check out all of your suggestions this week and see if any help. In all honesty, I'm not sure if this sub is going to do it for me. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.

I think back to all the times I bought a speaker/sub...1st thing I did was hook em up and crank em to see if they worked...for subs 0mv and adjusting gain knob on sub amp to see if it could go max gain(most cant) and what level it sounded best at...cant believe op still dicking around with it
No offense, but you have no idea what I have or haven't done ("dicked around") with the sub. I have done far more than what I have posted on here. I am doing my due-diligence to the fullest.

@pfar54 : Any luck ? :confused: did you move sub around at all to see if it improved? or is it going back to svs
Not sure if it is going back to SVS. At this moment, I am thinking yes, however I want to weigh my options. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.

I did move the sub earlier today (very hectic weekend) to the corner. It helped slightly, but still nowhere near where I thought it would be. Before I finalize my decision I will try the suggestions that mthomas provided earlier. If those don't work then it will be going back.
 
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Well that sucks it shouldn't be be that much work to get it to sound good. Maybe you can still get @David Charles to come over and help. Or maybe you will need to go with dual subs instead good luck .
 

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I will check out all of your suggestions this week and see if any help. In all honesty, I'm not sure if this sub is going to do it for me. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.
We have no plans to offer any gloss options on any products. jtr does custom finish work though as does DSS and Funk iirc--check with them.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
 

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I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ...
I would not even bother with a PB-16 to be honest. If this sub is not cutting it for you, then step up to a JTR 2400 either small cab or big cab or PSA 3611. The PSA will be very strong up top the JTR will be strong down low and close up top. However they are more expensive than the 3611. Custom finish from JTR are beautiful but figure in an up charge of about $500 and an extended wait time. For sheer output down to 10hz look at the JTRs for sure. I would also recommend the Rythmik FV18 paper cone but won't be available till Jan. The black oak finish on them is really nice and good looking for no extra charge.
 

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Definitely willing to put the work in on the sub, if it isn't evident by how long this thread is. I have positioned, re-positioned, and ran Audyssey at least 20 times. To say the least, my wife hasn't been happy with me the last couple of weeks.

I will check out all of your suggestions this week and see if any help. In all honesty, I'm not sure if this sub is going to do it for me. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.



No offense, but you have no idea what I have or haven't done ("dicked around") with the sub. I have done far more than what I have posted on here. I am doing my due-diligence to the fullest.



Not sure if it is going back to SVS. At this moment, I am thinking yes, however I want to weigh my options. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.

I did move the sub earlier today (very hectic weekend) to the corner. It helped slightly, but still nowhere near where I thought it would be. Before I finalize my decision I will try the suggestions that mthomas provided earlier. If those don't work then it will be going back.

did you try toggling to the neg polarity setting ?
bumping the eq on the sub up in the mid bass areas ?
 

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Definitely willing to put the work in on the sub, if it isn't evident by how long this thread is. I have positioned, re-positioned, and ran Audyssey at least 20 times. To say the least, my wife hasn't been happy with me the last couple of weeks.

I will check out all of your suggestions this week and see if any help. In all honesty, I'm not sure if this sub is going to do it for me. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.

Not sure if it is going back to SVS. At this moment, I am thinking yes, however I want to weigh my options. I might just upgrade to the PB-16 or the PSA V3611 ... I wish Tom had this sub in piano black...I would be all over it then.

I did move the sub earlier today (very hectic weekend) to the corner. It helped slightly, but still nowhere near where I thought it would be. Before I finalize my decision I will try the suggestions that mthomas provided earlier. If those don't work then it will be going back.

Hi,

I hope that some of those suggestions help! If they don't, then I think that it is likely that you are experiencing some mid-bass cancellation. I was hoping that you and Dave would be able to make arrangements for him to come measure your frequency response. But, if the PB4000 doesn't cut it for you, then the PB16 won't either. The PB16 is even more of a low-bass specialist then the PB4000 is. It has about 3db more SPL from about 35Hz down, but roughly equivalent mid-bass. From what you have been saying, you have been getting enough low-bass already. It is more mid-bass you are after.

If you put a different subwoofer in the same room, you may experience the same problems, if cancellation in the mid-bass region is the culprit. That's why I think it would be smart to rule that out via measurement. If it's not a question of cancellation, but simply a question of wanting more mid-bass SPL, there are two specific subwoofers that I would look at, if I were you. I mentioned them before. Both the PSA V3611 and the JTR Cap 118HT are ported subwoofers with proportionally more mid-bass SPL than the PB4000 has. The big SVS subwoofers deliberately concentrate more SPL in the low-bass.

If you are serious about wanting piano black, the JTR Cap 118HT can be special-ordered that way. I would not consider the Cap 2400 if I were you. It would have proportionately even more low-bass than the PB4000. If the problem is not mid-bass cancellation, but instead, just your desire for relatively more mid-bass, compared to the low-bass, then you need a subwoofer with a higher port tune, and/or more overall SPL distributed across the mid-bass range.

The V3611 would be very good for that purpose, and so would the Cap 118HT. If you wanted him to, Jeff P. of JTR, could also give your Cap 118 a 20Hz port tune, rather than the current 18Hz. That would give you even more mid-bass, relative to the low-bass. Rule-out the possibility of mid-bass cancellation first, and then it's strictly a YMMV question as to where you want to concentrate more SPL.

Regards,
Mike
 

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setting the xover for the sub higher to maybe 150hz in the avr might result in a difference...many subs roll off at 80hz or so and getting great bass above that requires good front speakers


so why expect a suB woofer to do midbass?


Midbass or midrange is generally defined to be within about 80-500Hz.
 

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agree with mt, plus...
the bass on these svs are SO DARN CLEAN, it takes you a while to really understand what you are hearing at times.
i know ive never personally heard bass like this.
all those years of hearing the loud, distorted, pounding, most folks called bass, makes you think thats what its supposed to sound like.
ill take clean, tight, articulate, undistorted bass , over a huge mess of pounding, flapping, bloated,port chuffing, chaos anyday.
 

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Hi,

I hope that some of those suggestions help! If they don't, then I think that it is likely that you are experiencing some mid-bass cancellation. I was hoping that you and Dave would be able to make arrangements for him to come measure your frequency response. But, if the PB4000 doesn't cut it for you, then the PB16 won't either. The PB16 is even more of a low-bass specialist then the PB4000 is. It has about 3db more SPL from about 35Hz down, but roughly equivalent mid-bass. From what you have been saying, you have been getting enough low-bass already. It is more mid-bass you are after.

If you put a different subwoofer in the same room, you may experience the same problems, if cancellation in the mid-bass region is the culprit. That's why I think it would be smart to rule that out via measurement. If it's not a question of cancellation, but simply a question of wanting more mid-bass SPL, there are two specific subwoofers that I would look at, if I were you. I mentioned them before. Both the PSA V3611 and the JTR Cap 118HT are ported subwoofers with proportionally more mid-bass SPL than the PB4000 has. The big SVS subwoofers deliberately concentrate more SPL in the low-bass.

If you are serious about wanting piano black, the JTR Cap 118HT can be special-ordered that way. I would not consider the Cap 2400 if I were you. It would have proportionately even more low-bass than the PB4000. If the problem is not mid-bass cancellation, but instead, just your desire for relatively more mid-bass, compared to the low-bass, then you need a subwoofer with a higher port tune, and/or more overall SPL distributed across the mid-bass range.

The V3611 would be very good for that purpose, and so would the Cap 118HT. If you wanted him to, Jeff P. of JTR, could also give your Cap 118 a 20Hz port tune, rather than the current 18Hz. That would give you even more mid-bass, relative to the low-bass. Rule-out the possibility of mid-bass cancellation first, and then it's strictly a YMMV question as to where you want to concentrate more SPL.

Regards,
Mike
That is a good point Mike, hadn't picked out the fact that the OP is not after low bass? Is that right though? I don't think we still know much about the cause of what he is hearing, this is where REW would have been very helpful
 

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That is a good point Mike, hadn't picked out the fact that the OP is not after low bass? Is that right though? I don't think we still know much about the cause of what he is hearing, this is where REW would have been very helpful
yeah, i would actually give money, to go to his place, just to see what he is calling " not enough mid bass"

have you tried it in all 3 port settings ?
 

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Discussion Starter #211
We have no plans to offer any gloss options on any products. jtr does custom finish work though as does DSS and Funk iirc--check with them.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Bummer.

I would not even bother with a PB-16 to be honest. If this sub is not cutting it for you, then step up to a JTR 2400 either small cab or big cab or PSA 3611. The PSA will be very strong up top the JTR will be strong down low and close up top. However they are more expensive than the 3611. Custom finish from JTR are beautiful but figure in an up charge of about $500 and an extended wait time. For sheer output down to 10hz look at the JTRs for sure. I would also recommend the Rythmik FV18 paper cone but won't be available till Jan. The black oak finish on them is really nice and good looking for no extra charge.
What’s the deal with the paper cone? Benefit? I’ve seen this posted a few times here.

did you try toggling to the neg polarity setting ?
bumping the eq on the sub up in the mid bass areas ?
Not yet. My window for testing during the week is short with my kids bed time.

Hi,

I hope that some of those suggestions help! If they don't, then I think that it is likely that you are experiencing some mid-bass cancellation. I was hoping that you and Dave would be able to make arrangements for him to come measure your frequency response. But, if the PB4000 doesn't cut it for you, then the PB16 won't either. The PB16 is even more of a low-bass specialist then the PB4000 is. It has about 3db more SPL from about 35Hz down, but roughly equivalent mid-bass. From what you have been saying, you have been getting enough low-bass already. It is more mid-bass you are after.

If you put a different subwoofer in the same room, you may experience the same problems, if cancellation in the mid-bass region is the culprit. That's why I think it would be smart to rule that out via measurement. If it's not a question of cancellation, but simply a question of wanting more mid-bass SPL, there are two specific subwoofers that I would look at, if I were you. I mentioned them before. Both the PSA V3611 and the JTR Cap 118HT are ported subwoofers with proportionally more mid-bass SPL than the PB4000 has. The big SVS subwoofers deliberately concentrate more SPL in the low-bass.

If you are serious about wanting piano black, the JTR Cap 118HT can be special-ordered that way. I would not consider the Cap 2400 if I were you. It would have proportionately even more low-bass than the PB4000. If the problem is not mid-bass cancellation, but instead, just your desire for relatively more mid-bass, compared to the low-bass, then you need a subwoofer with a higher port tune, and/or more overall SPL distributed across the mid-bass range.

The V3611 would be very good for that purpose, and so would the Cap 118HT. If you wanted him to, Jeff P. of JTR, could also give your Cap 118 a 20Hz port tune, rather than the current 18Hz. That would give you even more mid-bass, relative to the low-bass. Rule-out the possibility of mid-bass cancellation first, and then it's strictly a YMMV question as to where you want to concentrate more SPL.

Regards,
Mike
What frequencies define low and mid bass?

Thanks again. I haven’t reached out yet. I wanted to reposition the sub first. I bought the testing equipment and can try first before bringing someone else in.

setting the xover for the sub higher to maybe 150hz in the avr might result in a difference...many subs roll off at 80hz or so and getting great bass above that requires good front speakers


so why expect a suB woofer to do midbass?


Midbass or midrange is generally defined to be within about 80-500Hz.
I am not referring to over 80hz. I am referring to 45-70hz.

That is a good point Mike, hadn't picked out the fact that the OP is not after low bass? Is that right though? I don't think we still know much about the cause of what he is hearing, this is where REW would have been very helpful
I am after low bass. It’s just the pb-4000 is very week, at least in my experience, during 45-70hz.

I bought the equipment for the REW testing. Just have to watch a couple videos on how to do it and download the software.
 

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Discussion Starter #212
yeah, i would actually give money, to go to his place, just to see what he is calling " not enough mid bass"

have you tried it in all 3 port settings ?
Anyone is free to stop by if in the area.

I haven’t messed with the port tunes yet.
 

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Bummer.







What’s the deal with the paper cone? Benefit? I’ve seen this posted a few times here.







Not yet. My window for testing during the week is short with my kids bed time.







What frequencies define low and mid bass?



Thanks again. I haven’t reached out yet. I wanted to reposition the sub first. I bought the testing equipment and can try first before bringing someone else in.







I am not referring to over 80hz. I am referring to 45-70hz.







I am after low bass. It’s just the pb-4000 is very week, at least in my experience, during 45-70hz.



I bought the equipment for the REW testing. Just have to watch a couple videos on how to do it and download the software.


Use the Austin Jerry guide for REW. Best out there. Low bass would be below say 30-35hz.

The rythmik subs have aluminum cones and they have recently introduced a paper cone version for the FV18 giving it a warmer sound and more tactile response.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I know all about missing bass between 40-70hz....I was fortunate to fix thanks to avs members.


the fix wasnt replacing my subs :)
 

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Discussion Starter #217
The negative polarity did not help.

I added the PEQ setting for 63hz +2dB. It helped a tad. I will run the REW at some point this week and post what I found.

Thanks everyone for the help so far.
 

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Well seems odd at this point. I'm assuming you have walked around the room and the bass isn't any better somewhere other than MLP? Maybe just try a microprocessor reset on your AVR and run Audy one more time. If no different then give SVS a call and see what they say.

This has been brought up multiple times, should have been done day 1 and I'm not sure we have a response to this. Play a 1 minute test tone at 20hz, 30hz and 40hz and work your way around the room to see if the MLP is in a null for the subs current location.
 

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This should all be sorted out with REW once you get the time to do it. Yes little kids make finding the time to do all this much harder. I've been wanting to tweak some stuff for months and haven't had the time. This will likely turn out to be a big null due to placement/room or potentially a speaker/sub timing issue that will require altering sub distance. For some the latter can cause quite a significant mid bass null. If you want to quickly experiment you can try adding to sub distance in AVR 1ft at a time and seeing if you notice any improvement but ultimately this needs to be done with REW.
 
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