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Discussion Starter #1



Edit With PC/Mac


This thread is for providing info to people who want to use a computer to edit +VR files recorded on a Philips 3575/3576 or Magnavox 2080/2160/2160A/513/515/533/535/537.


I know several people have posted little "snippets" of info, but with the +VR's slightly different folder/file structure, it probably needs a place for easy reference, like this thread.

See also Post #2 and those following for lots more detailed info.
Updates below:
Easy way to get DVDR files on a PC HDD
See this post for simple, "container-swapping" DVD-to-PC file copy procedure. Follow that discussion for a few more posts for some "push-back" and eventual "reinforcement" of the simple "change-the-container" procedure.
To assure this doesn't become "unavailable" someday, I've Quoted the three pertinent posts here:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24630#post_23983032

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg28  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24600_100#post_23982063


At the end of the day, I have to be able to convert to PC storage. I'd prefer both DVD and PC copies. I thought I could record to the HDD and then make a DVD from it as well as transfer from the HDD to the PC. But apparently that's not quite the case.
Well, DVD and PC copies are pretty much the same from a data perspective. It's more a matter of the container and the time involved to get stuff off a DVD recorder. You would make the digital transfer of the VHS tape using the DVD recorder. As noted, the only way to get the transfer out of the DVD recorder is to burn it off onto DVD-R. If you choose, you can edit it on the DVDR before burning to make a finished DVD -- or just burn the "raw" footage to a DVD-RW and edit it on the PC before authoring a compilation to a DVD-R or BD-R. The format of the burned DVD-R/RW is DVD Video. You just put that disk in your PC and there are any number of programs available that will let you extract the individual titles from the disk and save them into any of the standard video containers -- .mpg, .m2ts, MKV, etc. As long as you leave the video format as MPEG-2, there is no re-encoding which means there is no loss in video quality since all you are doing is changing container format -- it's a very fast process that could take a minute or less per SD title -- it takes me ~2 min to save a 5GB HDTV recording as an .m2ts or .mpg file. All these standard containers can be played by almost any PC program like WMP or VLC. You could make compilations of any combination and author them to DVD at any time you needed -- it's all just a matter of some simple software.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24630#post_23984356

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24600_100#post_23983437


In my experience, once these are digitized to DVD, any attempt to extract them as standalone files results in a further degradation of quality- even a so called "lossless MPEG" extraction.
I'm sorry but that is simply not the case. There is no degradation. The .VOB files of a DVD Video are simply containers that hold the MPEG-2 video stream and the audio streams. When you extract a title from a multi-title .VOB you simply pull the streams out of the .VOB container and mux them into a new container format. The streams are bit-image replicas of the originals. There is no change to the actual video data -- as long as you are not recoding to either change the codec or shrink the size of the stream.


It's the same as if someone hands you a bag containing two sandwiches, closed with a twist-tie. You open the twist tie, remove one of the sandwiches and put it in a ziplock bag. You have not changed the sandwich in any way, it will still taste the same. You only put it in a new bag.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24630#post_23984384

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg28  /t/940657/magnavox-537-535-533-515-513-2160a-2160-2080-philips-3576-3575/24600_100#post_23983463


I primarily want backup sources before the VHS tapes eventually deteriorate. As long as I can rip them from the DVD to a computer in any playable format, I am fine with that.
That is the case. There is no great mystery here. You can play a DVD on a PC, right. In the simplest case you use a program like ImgBurn to rip the full DVD to an .iso file (disk image). Just about every PC player will play a DVD.iso image file as if it were the disk in the DVD drive.


Everything is digitally convertible to everything -- as long as you don't recode, there is no loss and the copies are bit-image replicas of the A/V streams.
 

Good Source for DVD Fix, Copying & Burning SW
This site has some good info and links for all sorts of DVD work. Check web for latest versions of the recommended SW.

MPEG-2 Error Correction Tool

I know nothing about this, but it sounds as if a PC editor might be able to use this tool for its stated purposes: Error Detection, Error Repair and Improved Decoder Compatibility. Please report if you find it "inappropriate" for use on our DVDR files.

Transferring & Recovering Deleted DVD Titles

Ken.F posted on a way to view, copy-to-PC and recover deleted titles on a DVD, as described here.

MKV Files

Converting PhilMag files to MKV? See these two posts.

Ignore the VIDEO_RM Folder
One source of problems for PC-editing of Philips and Magnavox +VR format DVDs is the "unusual" Video_RM folder on +VR discs.

Afterdawn says this about Video_RM (note esp. last bolded para):


"VIDEO_RM


Folders found in a DVD file structure can often contain a legacy folder called VIDEO_RM. Essentially, this folder is rather useless to most set-top DVD players as it is a folder referenced on Philips brand DVD recorders as well as Philips clones. For reasons unknown, Philips decided not to abide by standards of DVD file structures and used this VIDEO_RM folder to hold information about the recording device a DVD was created on.


The folder, when viewed through several DVD re-authoring tools will show that it is useless much in the same way an AUDIO_TS folder is.

There have been cases where DVDs created with the VIDEO_RM folder have caused several other brands of set-top players, DVD re-authoring programs and other devices to not read the DVD information correctly. Often an error similar to "unrecognized file structure" will be given as whatever device is reading the disk does not understand what to do with the Video_RM folder. Simple fixes include loading the DVD in File mode on certain DVD re-authoring programs and deleting anything associated with the Video_RM folder, then compiling a new, clean ISO."

Tonypeter reinforces this advice to ignore the Video_RM folder, saying "After you’ve High Speed dubbed your recordings to a DVD +/-R, -RW and finalize them or +RW (no need to finalize) you’ll have a DVD video compliant disc with a VIDEO_TS folder on it. Any other folders there including VIDEO_RM are irrelevant for your purpose.

Bottom Line: IGNORE THE VIDEO_RM FOLDER ENTIRELY!

VideoRedo & DVD-lab


Rustewey posted this in a review of the 2160A on the Walmart site:


"I record shows I want to keep. Extract them onto my computer, clean them up (commercials etc.) with VideoReDo , and author to DVD with DVD-lab .


In the past I have recorded most TV programs in EP mode. average programs come out about 42 min. without commercials. I have been able to put 6 shows on a double layer DVD with Menu.


I have used the 2160A to remove commercials from recordings on the recorder and it works quite well."

MAC Update, Toast Titanium


Jtbell posted this on a Mac editing tool:


"... in the Macintosh world, Toast Titanium (the most common third-party CD and DVD burning utility) has an option to burn a DVD from a VIDEO_TS folder on the computer's hard disk.

 

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Another fly in the archiving ointment:

I pretty much like the Philips 3575 DVD Recorder with hard drive but I must not understand the Philips recording system.


I'm used to DVD-R recorders (Panny, JVC) where each title creates a separate vob file in the VIDEO_TS folder. The Video_ts folder that the Philips 3575 creates merges the titles together into 1 long multiple VOB files as if it were 1 Title (on a DVD-R). That sucks big time for editing later.

It also puts a folder on the disc named VIDEO_RM which is new to me.


I'm trying to convert lots of old VHS footage to DVD. Recording to the Philips HDD I was careful to split the programs up into separate titles so that once it was burned I could easily re-arrange (and edit) them later on my mac. But the Philips puts them all back together.


So put them in MPEG Streamclip and split them? Wrong. I tried it but after title 1 the gray menu screen appeared instead of title 2. So that's glitchy.


The Philips 3575 is fun but I'm almost ready to pack it in and go for the JVC DR-MV5 combo.


Am I missing something? Thanks.
 

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You can easily transfer recordings from the 3575 to your computer and read them or edit them using almost any software that reads menu titles or VOB files from a DVD. The 3575 records on DVDs in standard DVD+VR format - see http://www.ulead.com/learning/general/video_04_1.htm for a good explanation of this format. This the same DVD+VR format used by most other DVD+R/RW recorders and by PC programs such as NeroVision Express that can produce or edit VR format. With DVD+VR format, the recorder places additional temporary recording information in a special folder on the disc named Video_RM, separate from the usual Video_TS folder that contains the standard video files and menus. When recording to a rewritable disc, the recorder updates the Video_TS folder each time so that the disc is always playable in a normal DVD player, but that can only be done once on a write-once disc, when you Finalize it. Until you Finalize a write-once disc, there is no standard disc index, and the disc cannot be played in normal DVD players or computer DVD drives. You can see the unfinalized disc structure and read it in a computer drive with a special program like ISOBuster that reads UDF format.


The recorder does not record a separate VOB file per recording. Instead it appends new recordings to the same VOB file until the file reaches a 1 Gbyte size, then it starts a new file. The recorder will mix recordings at different resolutions in the same VOB file. The start point and resolution of each recording is correctly indexed in the IFO files, so DVD players and DVD editing programs have no problem, but it tends to confuse programs looking directly at the VOB files without going through the IFO index - they may freeze or crash at the point the video changes resolution in the VOB file.


If you are exporting DVD video to an avi file, the aspect ratio may need adjusting. For example, when the DVR records at 720 x 480 resolution, this is not a 4:3 aspect ratio, and the individual pixels do not have a 1:1 aspect ratio. The IFO file contains a 4:3 aspect ratio flag which tells the player to display it at that aspect ratio, but that flag is not carried through to other video formats. You may have to resample the input to the correct 4:3 aspect ratio in order to prevent the image from appearing stretched too wide. If your recording is actually 16:9 aspect ratio, and you want to keep it in DVD format, you may want to use the PC utility program IFOEdit to set the aspect ratio correctly in the IFO file for the title.


Some PC software comments:


NeroVision Express can import DVD+VR discs from the 3575 and edit them directly. The resulting disc can be Adapted back to the 3575 format without losing any content.


Nero Recode can read the DVD+VR index structure and the recorded video titles or VOB files produced by the 3575.


DVD Decrypter can be used to copy the recorded DVD to the hard drive. Although no decryption necessary, it usually reports fixing some minor errors in the DVD structure. Unknown whether these are genuine errors or a minor incompatibility with the DVD+VR format, but the process of copying with DVD Decrypter does sometimes make the video titles visible to other software which has trouble seeing them otherwise.


TMPGEnc DVD Author can read the DVD+VR index structure and the recorded video titles or VOB files directly from the disc recorded by the 3575, but it sees two copies of every title, as it seems to be reading both file structures independently. I like TMPGEnc DVD Author better than NeroVision Express for editing just because it is much more stable - NVE tends to crash a lot.


DVD Shrink 3.2 seems to have no problem reading DVD+VR discs recorded by the 3575 (which is not true with some previous DVD+VR recorders I have used). It may get a little confused when there is more than one title on the disc. You can do some limited re-authoring with DVD Shrink, but no editing within titles.


VirtualDub-MPEG2 (a variant of VirtualDub) can read the VOB files from the recorded disc, but you may have to resize the avi output to get the correct 4:3 aspect ratio. You also need an AC3 DVM codec installed on your computer to extract the audio (see http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/stable/ for links to the free video editor VirtualDubMPEG2 and a compatible AC3 codec).


ISOBuster can read and copy the VOB files from the recorded disc, even if it is a DVD+R which has not been finalized. This tool can also repair certain types of disc errors while it is copying the file, allowing you to recover video from bad discs. (Some of this functionality requires you to pay to register the program.)
 

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The easiest, by far, way to go is with TMPGEnc-Author. It will import any VR or video format and create terrific custom menus. It's not free, but neither is anything else that does the whole job. Plus, unlike many other authoring programs, it does not re-encode the video if it is already DVD-video compliant. It also allows you to re-set aspect from 4:3 to 16:9 on the input side, again avoiding a re-encode for changing aspect. Nero is one that likes to re-encode everything, as does Ulead. TMPGEnc-Author also offers excellent editing, again without a re-encode.


Many programs claim to support VR format, but don't quite get the job done.
 

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rdgrimes is right that one advantage of TMPGEnc DVD Author (at least for this purpose) is that it doesn't re-encode the MPEG-2 video unnecessarily, which many of the other video editors do.
 

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How do I work with DVD+VR on a Mac? Wabjxo started this thread for me but I was looking for info on editing Philips 3575 files on a Mac.

I'm trying to edit titles in Mpeg Steamclip and then burn without re-encoding using Toast.

If anyone knows about that I'd love to hear from you.


That would be Mac running OS X 10.4.11 (Tiger)
 

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I second rmae's question. I'm thinking about getting a 3575, but the key thing I want to do with it is digitize some old videotapes and then rip the discs I burn on a Mac.


(I know there are other ways to do this, by connecting the VCR through an A/D unit directly to the Mac, but because of equipment locations and such it would be a lot easier if I could burn to DVD first.)
 

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with +VR system (Philips) the disc will have one long VOB file for all the titles unlike -VR (Panasonic, JVC, Toshiba etc) which creates a VOB for each title. You can split it into separate files for each title using MacTheRipper or DVD2OneX.


Actually I ended up buying another DVD Recorder w/HDD for VHS dubbing, a Toshiba RD-XS35. It gives me so much flexibility for mixing/matching/splitting/joining/moving around titles, chapters etc that I don't need to involve the Mac now. It's complicated to learn and not that much fun to use but worth it for the results.


For my everyday time-shift recording I use the Philips 3575. The Philips IS fun to use (after reading Wajo's tips 'n tricks, that is).
 

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Hello,


Has anyone tried removing the hard drive and installing it in a PC as a 'slave'?

and if so, are the files readable and PC usable?


thanks!
 

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Maybe this has already been answered but I am still confused about one thing. To get the recording from the recorder to the computer, do I have to plug the recorder into the computer, or do I just burn the DVD on the recorder, and then put the DVD in my computer and import it?


Does anyone know if the recording can be edited on a Mac using iDVD, iMovie, or Toast? Those are the three applications I have available. What I really want to do is to take TV shows and put them on DVD and make it look professional (i.e. black fade outs where the commercials were instead of sharp cuts). Any advice on the easiest way to do this?
 

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I am looking into this recorder to replace an old JVC MVS that has a sound drop-out problem. When I import the DVD into Adobe Permier Elements there are strange scene breaks that I did not put in -- I assume it is an auto-created bookmark that the JVC creates. Anyway, at each of these scene breaks/bookmarks, the sound disappears for several seconds.


But this post really is about the Magnavox.



Since I use Adobe Premier Elements to edit files from my DVD recordings, I'm wondering if anyone has experience with Adobe being able to import the video from DVDs burned on the Magnavox. Or will I need to run it through Nero or Decrypter to get something I can work with?


Thanks in advance.
 

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Whether its Macs,Windows or Linux, every system has pros and cons. Mac software lags somewhat behind Windows when it comes to dealing with goofball "non-standard" video formats such as DVD+VR. While the "new" Phillips DVD+VR has become a standard of sorts on many recent DVD recorders, and plays well with DVD players and other dedicated hardware when finalized, it does confuse the hell out of many existing video editing applications which expect to see a standard DVD-R file structure. A few Windows apps have been updated to recognize DVD+VR and work with it directly, but many other Windows apps (and AFAIK all Mac apps) don't know what to make of DVD+VR.


The easiest workaround is to make a copy of the original DVD that reformats it into the usual VOB file structure. This usually requires a Windows PC and one of the apps mentioned in earlier posts (you could also try CloneDVD) which "repair" the file structure during the copy process without re-encoding. If you are Mac-exclusive, you could try one of the Windows-on-Mac options to run such software on your Mac. Another possibility is to take the finalized DVD+VR to a different brand DVD/HDD recorder, say Pioneer or Panasonic, and have the recorder make a backup copy. The recorders will sometimes reformat the copied VOB system on the fly to standard-issue. The copied disc with standardized structure should then be usable to average Windows and Mac video software. Eventually this will cease to be a problem, as the Phillips DVD+VR really is rapidly becoming a significant standard. Within a year or so we should see all the major apps on all platforms release an upgrade or patch enabling direct use of DVD+VR.
 

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I'm starting to transfer my VCR tapes and Laser Discs to DVDs. I'm planning to use Adobe Premiere Elements to clean up the dub and burn a DVD+R. So I started with a LD movie and recorded it in HQ mode. Dubbing to DVD+RW using High Speed, it required two discs.


Now I prefer to have a single DVD for a 2 hour movie. What is the best way to do this and have the best quality?


Should I:

1. Record at HQ and let the Philips reduce the quality during the dub?

2. Record at a lower quality instead of HQ so it will fit on a single DVD?

3. Record at HQ and let Adobe Premiere reduce the quality?
 

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Discussion Starter #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhata /forum/post/15679571


I'm starting to transfer my VCR tapes and Laser Discs to DVDs. I'm planning to use Adobe Premiere Elements to clean up the dub and burn a DVD+R. So I started with a LD movie and recorded it in HQ mode. Dubbing to DVD+RW using High Speed, it required two discs.


Now I prefer to have a single DVD for a 2 hour movie. What is the best way to do this and have the best quality?


Should I:

1. Record at HQ and let the Philips reduce the quality during the dub?

2. Record at a lower quality instead of HQ so it will fit on a single DVD?

3. Record at HQ and let Adobe Premiere reduce the quality?

Altho the 3575 can do mode-conversion dubs from HQ to other speeds in real-time with excellent quality, as described here , it depends on how much time you can or want to spend on the 1st step, real-time copy, then the 2nd step, dub to DVD.


#1 above will require TWO real-time copy/dub processes.

#2 above would prob. be best, esp. if the original copy could be made in 2-hr-SP, which will fit 2:10:00 on a std DVD using High-Speed Dub (HSD), as explained here .

#3 above I'll let someone answer who uses a computer to produce DVDs, I don't.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo /forum/post/15679661


#1 above will require TWO real-time copy/dub processes.

#2 above would prob. be best, esp. if the original copy could be made in 2-hr-SP, which will fit 2:10:00 on a std DVD using High-Speed Dub (HSD), as explained here .

#3 above I'll let someone answer who uses a computer to produce DVDs, I don't.

Thanks for the suggestion.


Anybody have an opinion on Premiere?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhata /forum/post/15679571


I'm starting to transfer my VCR tapes and Laser Discs to DVDs. I'm planning to use Adobe Premiere Elements to clean up the dub and burn a DVD+R. So I started with a LD movie and recorded it in HQ mode. Dubbing to DVD+RW using High Speed, it required two discs.


Now I prefer to have a single DVD for a 2 hour movie. What is the best way to do this and have the best quality?


Should I:

1. Record at HQ and let the Philips reduce the quality during the dub?

2. Record at a lower quality instead of HQ so it will fit on a single DVD?

3. Record at HQ and let Adobe Premiere reduce the quality?

If you are willing to inject a PC into the workstream and spend a little extra time on the project, you will get the best in terms of quality and flexibility. Go with option #3. Record the source using the highest quality setting of the DVD recorder, usually a 1 hr mode which will encode at an average bitrate of 8.5 Mbps. This bitrate is nearly lossless in prinicple, but the absolute quality of the recording will depend on the quality of the hardware encoder in the DVDR -- they can differ substantially. Afterwards, split the title into 1hr segments and burn to whatever media is convenient for transfer to the PC. As far as finalized vs. unfinalized formats go, simple rule of thumb is if you can play the disk in a standard DVD-player or using the media player on the PC, every modern PC authoring program worth it's salt will be able to read and import the video. Adobe Premier is good software.


After you are done combining, editing and authoring the video with all the menus you want you will have the option of "shrinking" the project to fit on a single DVD. The software will do this by doing a multi-pass transcoding of the MPEG files to a lower bitrate without having to convert them back to analog and re-encoding. This is the primary reason for using a PC -- no real-time hardware encoder in any consumer level DVDR can match the performance, picture quality and flexibility of a good PC-based multi-pass transcoder. How much you can shrink depends on your taste for picture quality. If you go much below 4Mbps while maintaining the 720x480 recorded resolution, you will start to see some softening of the picture when viewed on large 1080p flat panel displays -- as in everything it depends on the quality of the display, with a big plasma you'll see it. With smaller 720p LCDs you can give up more in bitrate before you see it. If a big screen is in your future, you might want to consider keeping the bitrate up and burning the bigger projects to DL media. What I've outlined above is what I do for preserving select sporting events -- like my Phillies winning the World Series.


Finally, when you burn the project, use the highest quality media you can get your hands on -- Taiyo Yuden 8X DVD-R for single layer or Verbatim 2.4X DVD+DL for double layer. To do less would be like spending days patching the drywall and prepping the molding in a room for painting than going out to walmart to buy the cheapest paint you can find.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson /forum/post/15683641



If you go much below 4Mbps while maintaining the 720x480 recorded resolution, you will start to see some softening of the picture when viewed on large 1080p flat panel displays -- as in everything it depends on the quality of the display, with a big plasma you'll see it. With smaller 720p LCDs you can give up more in bitrate before you see it. If a big screen is in your future, you might want to consider keeping the bitrate up and burning the bigger projects to DL media.


Finally, when you burn the project, use the highest quality media you can get your hands on -- Taiyo Yuden 8X DVD-R for single layer or Verbatim 2.4X DVD+DL for double layer. To do less would be like spending days patching the drywall and prepping the molding in a room for painting than going out to walmart to buy the cheapest paint you can find.

Thanks for the feedback Kelson! I don't know a lot about video, but most of what you said gives me a better picture (pun not intended) of what my options are.


However, when you say 4Mbps, what does that translate to WRT the Philips 3575?


You also brought up something that I had not thought of: DL. I typically purchase Taiyo Yuden DVD+R because of their high quality, for my backups and photo archives. I have always avoided DL. However for video playback I might consider it.


This also brings up another option (since I just bought 100 DVD+R and DL's are 6 times more expensive). I could save the original HQ files and burn a "reduced" version on a single DVD. This way I have a backup in case I want to re-record in the future.


Which brings up another option. If in Premiere Elements I maintain a high quality level, when does one have to decide to burn to a single or multiple DVDs? If it's at the very end, I could use this stage to burn both a single disc playback media and a two-disc backup.


Thanks...
 
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