[gastrof]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo /forum/post/14888476

Another post by a JVC user who says he called JVC and they "were aware" that CP was happening during commercials.

Starting to look more and more like the way to record and be able to burn discs is to use a digital converter box and feed the a/v signals into a recorder.


Shame.


I end up owning two 76s, and would have been just as successful keeping my 3455 and maybe looking to get a second one of those.

 

[rgazzara]

My local FOX digital station has been the leading offender in programs recorded to my 3576 that contained the "do not copy" copy-once CP flag.


To further convince myself that these CP flags are created by the 3576 by falsely reacting to something in the digital signal that triggers the CP, yesteday I recorded 16 straight programs from my local digital FOX channel (QAM over Comcast cable) on a DVD-RAM disc on my Panasonic EZ-28, which also has a QAM digital tuner.


These programs were then HS dubbed to the HDD of my Panasonic E-500 recorder, which displays a "copy-once" icon next to programs with CP when the dubbing of these programs to DVD-R discs is attempted.


Not one of these programs had the copy-once icon next to the title, leading me to believe that there was no CP flag in any of the programs.


My conclusion is that my local digital FOX channel does NOT incorporate CP in any of its programs, and that the CP on the Philips 3576 is a false reaction to a non-existant CP flag. However, there is a slight possibility that by recording to DVD-RAM, the CP flag has been "lost". I don't believe this, but a good test will be to record directly on a DVD-R disc.


Later this week, I will try this again, this time recording on a DVD-R disc on my EZ-28. If there is a copy-once CP flag on any of the programs, it will not be recorded on the disc.

 

[gastrof]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rgazzara /forum/post/14896604


My local FOX digital station has been the leading offender in programs recorded to my 3576 that contained the "do not copy" copy-once CP flag...

I've stopped getting the flags off my NBC affiliate, but its sister station, our CW channel, has them all the time. Also, last week our Fox station did NOT have a flag when it ran STARGATE ATLANTIS, but this weekend's episode DID have a flag again.


*sigh....groan....grrrr*

 

[satellitesteve]

Hello. I am trying to come up to speed on my problem with my approx 1 year old DVDR3575H recorder. Some times I am getting the +VR mode error on my machine when recording and the unit shuts down. Usually it is in the middle of a commercial. Most times it is on the local FOX analog feed but sometimes also on the NBC digital feed. I am only using the built in over the air tuner. Can anyone advise as to my options with this unit. This is very annoying to not even be able to trust this unit to record a complete program with what I paid for it.


Thanks, Steve

 

[7558037]

Steve, It appears that, since Sep 1 or earlier, a number of people have been noticing CP in commercials with various machines. Besides a couple in this thread with 3576's, here are just a few other people having the same problem:

One user with two DVDRs, LG and Sony, attached to STBs... one poster mentions the possibility of RIAA protection on the music used.

Interesting post by a Toshiba XS32 user who's "suddenly" getting Copy-Once flags, and a potential solution in the works?

Another post by a JVC user who says he called JVC and they "were aware" that CP was happening during commercials. Several posts later, docfager says he also experienced CP in a commercial.


Can't offer any advice beyond what I did in that last JVC link since no one really knows WTH is going on!

UPDATE 2/1/09 - Apparently, JVC has found the problem with the CO-protected commercials in their DVDRs. They've posted a FW update to take care of that problem in at least one of their DVDRs, as mentioned here.

 

[kenavs]



Quote:
Originally Posted by satellitesteve /forum/post/14906480


Hello. I am trying to come up to speed on my problem with my approx 1 year old DVDR3575H recorder. Some times I am getting the +VR mode error on my machine when recording and the unit shuts down. Usually it is in the middle of a commercial. Most times it is on the local FOX analog feed but sometimes also on the NBC digital feed. I am only using the built in over the air tuner. Can anyone advise as to my options with this unit. This is very annoying to not even be able to trust this unit to record a complete program with what I paid for it.


Thanks, Steve

I just want to be sure I understand exactly what is happening.

Are you trying to record from the OTA tuner to the Hard Drive or a DVD when this happens?


I thought we were supposed to be able to record a copy-once item to the HDD. If the older units cannot record a copy-once to the HDD, I may have it completely backwards on the 0x93 tuner. It may be a step forward if it can at least record to the HDD with a no-dub flag.

On second thought, it seemed like the 0x90 might be ignoring OTA copy-once. I give up. I don't have a clue what is actually happening.

 

[rgazzara]



Quote:
Originally Posted by satellitesteve /forum/post/14906480


Hello. I am trying to come up to speed on my problem with my approx 1 year old DVDR3575H recorder. Some times I am getting the +VR mode error on my machine when recording and the unit shuts down. Usually it is in the middle of a commercial. Most times it is on the local FOX analog feed but sometimes also on the NBC digital feed. I am only using the built in over the air tuner. Can anyone advise as to my options with this unit. This is very annoying to not even be able to trust this unit to record a complete program with what I paid for it.


Thanks, Steve

No copy protection problem with my Panasonic EZ-28, Pioneer 640 or Panasonic E-500 recorders, but I have one with my Philips 3576.


My guess is that the recorders that are applying copy protection to these programs are falsely reacting to something in the video signal that is triggering copy protection, but in reality, there is no copy protection signal.


If it bothers you, you can return the recorder or purchase a filter that will block the signal that is causing the problem. However, there is no guarantee that the filter will block the problem signal because it is not a true copy protection signal.

 

[rgazzara]



Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs /forum/post/14907344


I just want to be sure I understand exactly what is happening.

Are you trying to record from the OTA tuner to the Hard Drive or a DVD when this happens?


I thought we were supposed to be able to record a copy-once item to the HDD. If the older units cannot record a copy-once to the HDD, I may have it completely backwards on the 0x93 tuner. It may be a step forward if it can at least record to the HDD with a no-dub flag.

On second thought, it seemed like the 0x90 might be ignoring OTA copy-once. I give up. I don't have a clue what is actually happening.

If the OP is getting the copy protection preventing recording on his HDD, then it is "copy-never" copy protection. If this is the case, then this would be the first I've heard of this happening on channels that are broadcast OTA...


My 3576 with the 0x90 tuner did not show the copy protection problem -- but that was because the tuner lost channels and sometimes recorded nothing!! My replacement with the 0x93 tuner holds the channels fine, but copy protection shows up occasionally.

 

[gastrof]

The board member satellitesteve said his machine actually shuts down during recordings.


This sounds like he's getting copy-never flags. Again, notice he says it happens during commercials, but oddly enough it happens on analog channels too, which shouldn't be able to transmit such a flag.


This makes me suspect more and more that it's totally the fault of the tuner or some related part of the machine.


PS


Still not done emptying my 93 machine which gets the flags, and last night recorded HEROES off NBCs digital affiliate in my area. Started it a few minutes early (tail end of Chuck), and ran a few minutes long. (I do this to make sure I get the start and end of an episode. Trim off the extra bits later.)


Haven't been getting the flags on HEROES for a few weeks now, but last night a little after 10 I checked, and the recording had one...until I chopped off the tail end of Chuck. The flag stayed with that part of the recording, and HEROES itself was clean. Thing is, I don't believe that last bit of Chuck had any commercials, which suggests the flag was in the show, and not an ad in this case. Of course, since it may also be a false flag that wasn't really there, where it happens may be a moot point.


Since satellitesteve says he seems to have gotten a copy-never flag on an ANALOG station...

 

[7558037]

 Interesting story by Eric Bangeman on May 29, 2008 re: NBC "inadvertently" setting a CP flag on primetime shows that should have been "Copy Freely."


The error primarily affected Windows Media Center according to an earlier article... one Arstechnica DirecTV user and a Tivo user reported no similar problem on that same show.


I esp. like the concluding paragraphs in the linked article:


"Microsoft is apparently determined to ensure that MCE owners don't again get the kind of rude surprise that greeted those expecting to see Wolf, Venom, and the rest of the gang trying to pound the crap out of hapless contenders. "We are working with [NBC] and others to ensure that procedures are in place so that such errors do not recur," the spokesperson said.


"That's cold comfort to owners of not only media center PCs, but DVRs and other devices that are ultimately at the mercy of Big Content's whims as to when and how they should be able to record and watch shows. There is technically no reason why Microsoft should support CGMS-A [Analog CP] in Windows Vista and Windows XP MCE, and the screwup is evidence the software giant has decided to align itself with the interests of broadcasters and movie studios rather than those of its customers. Yes, this was a mistake by NBC, but the technology is there for such mistakes to be turned into policy."

That earlier article also made a good point on DRM:


"Remember: DRM isn't about fighting piracy. It's about the ability to strictly control how we consume content. Users who are interested in pirating TV shows and movies aren't going to do so with a DVR or buy them through PPV. They've already skipped the middle-man and gone straight to B i t Torrent with its decent-quality, commercial-less, and DRM-free offerings. Boneheaded mistakes like the one apparently made by NBC and Microsoft Monday night will only serve to make alternative means of obtaining content more attractive."

 

[Chuck44]

Hmmm.

 

[rgazzara]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gastrof /forum/post/14910852


The board member satellitesteve said his machine actually shuts down during recordings.


This sounds like he's getting copy-never flags. Again, notice he says it happens during commercials, but oddly enough it happens on analog channels too, which shouldn't be able to transmit such a flag.


This makes me suspect more and more that it's totally the fault of the tuner or some related part of the machine.


PS


Still not done emptying my 93 machine which gets the flags, and last night recorded HEROES off NBCs digital affiliate in my area. Started it a few minutes early (tail end of Chuck), and ran a few minutes long. (I do this to make sure I get the start and end of an episode. Trim off the extra bits later.)


Haven't been getting the flags on HEROES for a few weeks now, but last night a little after 10 I checked, and the recording had one...until I chopped off the tail end of Chuck. The flag stayed with that part of the recording, and HEROES itself was clean. Thing is, I don't believe that last bit of Chuck had any commercials, which suggests the flag was in the show, and not an ad in this case. Of course, since it may also be a false flag that wasn't really there, where it happens may be a moot point.


Since satellitesteve says he seems to have gotten a copy-never flag on an ANALOG station...

You mistakenly assume that copy protection signals can only be transmitted over digital channels. This is not true.


DVD recorders with analog-only tuners can also be subject to copy-once and copy-never copy protection. My Panasonic E-500, E-65, and Pioneer 640 DVD recorders all respond to copy protection and they only have analog tuners.


This form of copy protection is different from the digital "broadcast flag", but it operates in a similar manner, that is restricting copying. It is called Copy Generation Management System - Analog (CGMS-A), and it is carried in the vertical blanking interval (VBI) of the analog video signal.

Click here for a description in Wikipedia.

 

[gastrof]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo /forum/post/14912271

Interesting story by Eric Bangeman on May 29, 2008 re: NBC "inadvertently" setting a CP flag on primetime shows that should have been "Copy Freely." ...

I wonder if by any chance Fox, MGM, and The CW have been making that same little "boo-boo"?

 

[gastrof]



Quote:
Originally Posted by rgazzara /forum/post/14913770


You mistakenly assume that copy protection signals can only be transmitted over digital channels. This is not true.


DVD recorders with analog-only tuners can also be subject to copy-once and copy-never copy protection. My Panasonic E-500, E-65, and Pioneer 640 DVD recorders all respond to copy protection and they only have analog tuners.


This form of copy protection is different from the digital "broadcast flag", but it operates in a similar manner, that is restricting copying. It is called Copy Generation Management System - Analog (CGMS-A), and it is carried in the vertical blanking interval (VBI) of the analog video signal.

Click here for a description in Wikipedia.

I've never heard of such a thing with analog TV, and understood it was illegal.

 

[rgazzara]

It might be illegal for OTA broadcast analog programs (not absolutely sure about that), but it would not be illegal for cable-only programs or "pay channel" programs, such as HBO, etc.


By the way, I have never had an analog program flagged with CGMS-A copy protection on any of my DVD recorders. It might be interesting to see if the 3576 is also reacting to false CGMS-A in recording analog programs, like it reacts to false copy protection flags in recording digital programs. When I get a chance, I'll record a bunch of analog programs to see what happens.

 

[gastrof]

I've only had it happen so far on OTA digital channels (both by antenna and by cable), nothing originating on analog cable/satellite.


Since I only get one or two "nothing" cable channels on unscrambled QAM, I can't say what'd happen if I tried to record true digital cable channels on the "bad boy" machine.

 

[eyrr]

I've been following these threads for a while, but I only just got a 3576 last week, ( pack date: 24 June 2008, DTS-V: 0x93. ). I was going to wait a bit longer before posting about the "cannot copy to disk" flag, but I'm seeing a pattern too clear to ignore. I'm in Toronto Canada and I get my signal ( digital and analog ) OTA - Canadian channels from the Toronto area and American channels from Buffalo NY. Thus far, I have recorded about twenty digital shows in total, and I always get the flag on every American broadcast recording, ( from the Buffalo affiliates of CBS, ABC, the CW, FOX, and MYTV - formerly the WB ). The only exception ( no flags ) is PBS. I have never gotten any flags from a Canadian broadcast, even when the show being broadcast is an American network show, like House or Bones.

This would seem to support the theory that these flags are appearing as a result of advancements in anti-copy protection either at the broadcasting station or in the recorder or both. The pattern is just too stable and consistent, (in my particular case anyway ), to be a malfunction on my machine or the result of some kind of interference.

I suppose that the other possibility is the commercials. Most commercials on Canadian channels are made for the Canadian market. There are some that seem to be running identical versions on both sides of the border, but I don't know whether they might be altered for Canadian broadcast in a way viewers would not notice, ( closed captioned in French or something... ), and there are next to no commercials on PBS.

I don't have a problem with this because I'm just timeshifting. A pvr with added bonus upconverting dvd player suits me just fine. I know that my overall experience with this is limited and I should wait much longer before making definitive statements. But I thought the pattern was so striking that I should report it to those of you trying to figure out what's going on.

 

[Rammitinski]

Well, if these things needed any help being killed off for good in the USA, I think they've got it now. Say bye-bye.

 

[jjeff]

Has anyone tried hooking up a CECB to the line input of a 3576 and try recording that way? I'm just curious if the CECB would pass the CP flag on or if it only occurs using the built in digital tuner. Oh and that brings up another question, does anyone get the CP flag when recording from a analog channel or does this only occur on digital channels?

I agree, if this continues to get worse it will drive another nail into the coffin.

 

[DigaDo]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff /forum/post/14927968


Has anyone tried hooking up a CECB to the line input of a 3576 and try recording that way? I'm just curious if the CECB would pass the CP flag on or if it only occurs using the built in digital tuner. Oh and that brings up another question, does anyone get the CP flag when recording from a analog channel or does this only occur on digital channels?

I agree, if this continues to get worse it will drive another nail into the coffin.

Jeff,


My 3575 is enslaved to a Comcast digital to analog cable box and it's inputs are otherwise occupied or I would check this out.


On the Panasonic DMR-EZ17 thread I've just posted a related message, reproduced here in a somewhat revised form:


There is a Zenith DTT901 about two feet from one of my DMR-EZ17 models that's connected cable-ready to Comcast. Perhaps I'll connect the 901 to an EZ17 line in and do some experimental recordings, say, record some hour long shows in back-to-back ten minute segments alternating between cable ready digital, cable ready analog and OTA digital feeds of the same program. Perhaps I'll see what might have CP or not with that arrangement.