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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After reading a lot of posts on the Pioneer / Panasonic / NEC and JVC, I finally purchased a Pioneer 433HD. The 43 incher is nice to look at, has no noise and produced a good TV image. First of all, I am used to the incredible imagery of HiEnd CRT projector, maybe magnifying my bad experience... I have owned a Barco 701 / 808 and 808s, as well as an Electrohome 4500 and a DLP unit. The units produced a most amazing picture, but my better half finally was fed up with these large items hanging in our living room ceiling, so I chose to change to plasma, as they apparently had become good enough...


Well, I was totally wrong. The blacks are SO grey that a lot of the experience is simply destroyed... The details are washed away, and YES, I have used both HTPC and a regular DVD player. I am really disappointed... I have just paid the double that I sold my Barco 808s for, and the picture is this bad...


Well, at least my better half is pleased ;)


Actually, the quality is not THAT bad, but I really miss those dark black where all the information is showed... If you want a real home theater, do not choose plasma. Not DLP either for that sake, as they also have problems with blacks (the newest, like Sharp 9000 is better though...)


The bright scenes are wonderful, though... All you normal viewers will probably be happy...


If anyone in Europe is interested, I have a 433HD for sale, CHEAP.
 

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This is one of the reasons we keep on suggesting that people view these things before purchasing, and in your case moving from quality front projection will not have helped I'm sure :)


What you are describing though is exactly what I saw on the 503HD that I demo'd, but the 503MX which does not use the tuner box was a very different story with the missing detail in the blacks being restored.


It is going to be intersting to hear from more people with the 433MX as it begins to become available.


Only other suggestion to help you, which you may have already done, is to try and get the screen calibrated, or have a go yourself with an Avia or similar disk.


It does seem that the plasma are often shipped in a very much less than ideal configuration so some improvement may well be possible.


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The problem is not the calibration. Even with brigtness set to 0, the grey fussyness is still very evident in a darkened room...


I really do not think the 503cmx will be able to fix this problem... It may be able to process the dark area better and show more information, but the absolute black (grey) level will probably be very much the same....


Thanks from a disappointed guy that thought his imaginary needs were satisfied with this acclaimed unit...


....
 

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Best plasma for absolute black levels is still the Panasonic as far as I know.


As ever though, personal perceptions of these things are the most important, and it is prefectly possible that no plasma's are going to meet your expectations sadly.


Sorry it hasn't been quite the experience you'd hoped for.


Mark
 

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while you moan about the loss of deep blacks, console yourself by remembering how much fun convergence and full screen focus was, not to mention the huge projectors with ceiling mounts, fans, long cable runs, drawn blinds. whatever you get has its tradeoffs
 

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Jon,


Sorry to hear about your disappointment. I think you should reconsider selling your new plasma, as you have purchased a really nice display. The current plasma technology is not ready to give you what you're use to with the projector...this is definitely a big adjustment to make.


Keeping your wife happy is also important.:D I think the ultimate set-up is to have a plasma on the main floor of your home, and a large room in the basement devoted exclusively to home theatre with a large projection screen. This would be the best of bost worlds if you have the space.


Regards.


Howie
 

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Perhaps take a look at the 42" Pannys and the 50" Fujitsu. These units are capable of excellent blacks. If you find they meet your needs then maybe you should consider selling the unit. Living with something that makes you unhappy is not fun. Gee, did I just describe many marriages? I hope things work out for you! :)
 

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Today I saw the Pio 433 for the first time. The picture was nice (a DVD movie was running) and the blacks were very black (!) in a well lighted room. The pic looked a bit grainy compared to the Thomson beneath it but in the black areas one could see much more details in the Pio without these areas being grey !


I don't know if the plasmas are suitable for HT but they are certainly excellent TV sets to be used in normal ligthed environment.


How much did you pay for your Pio Jon ?
 

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I recently purchased the Pio PDP-5030HD, and as far as black levels go, I am extremely pleased. I fussed for months looking at the Panasonic, Fujitsu & Pio. I was ready to buy the Pio 503CMX, but like the ease of the new media box with built-in tuner, etc. Perhaps the US version is set-up different than the Euro. version?


Out of the box, color levels were set just rigt (using the Avia disk). When speaking with the Pio tech about my pixel problem, I asked if the media box was creating these better colors. He said no, it was the "deep cell structure" that Pio uses.


As per my previous post, my only big problem was that I have 1 dead pixel which Pioneer or my dealer will not cover.


DVD's are great, using a Pioneer Elite progressive scan DVD player. NTSC signal is not bad, using the "wide mode". Much better than the Pannasonic.


Can't wait to get some HD signal to the unit.
 

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Sorry to hear about your disappointment Jon but I'm not sure that the 433HD is all that acclaimed. There have been some very detailed posts here on this forum about it (R Harkness posted prolly the best one) and one very enthusiatic post from a recent owner. Not sure that that qualifies it as acclaimed though.


I have not seen this display but have seen the Panny and Fujitsu displays (the latter you could easily say that was acclaimed on this very forum - thank you Cineramax) that were recommended as having the best blacks. It may be worth your while to check these out if black levels are your biggest concern.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hello guys and thanks for the many replies :).


I also demoed the 503HD prior to purchasing this unit, and the blacks looked really good in the shop. The problem is that they did not turn of the lights as is the case when I watch DVD's at home. The blacks look black with some amount of lighting on, but when the lights go out, the grey fussiness becomes apparent.


I also agree that there are MANY positive sides with this plasma. Jlm is right on the fan, convergence, setup etc. etc, but at the bottom line, the image has to be good enough to endure an entire movie. I really feel the black levels to be as bad as to remove the three dimension and feeling of "being there" in darker scenes. In bright scenes, the colors are BETTER than any system I have ever seen, including my HiEnd 8" Barco Graphics 808s (and the color filtered Electrohome ECP 4500).


I purchased the unit directly from the importer and got a pretty decent deal (about 6000 USD), but we have to pay 24% tax here in this communist country, so the total price was almost 7500 USD. I put the unit on my company though, and I will therefore have the tax refund... ;)


I am really not out here to try to scare people away from plasma, but viewing these units in the stores simply does not give the right impression. They are kinda like LCD projectors; they look magnificent with bright scenes and animation (try to see what the shops are displaying), but when you get home and put on a regular movie you will have an entirely different experience.


As I have played a little more with the new toy, I have found the colors to be especially good. Also compared to the JVC, Sony and Nec that I have seen. Pioneer pushes the output so far and in combination with a good filters, the colors look really strong and correct. These excellent colors come at a price though, a push in light output that gives the blacks the grey looks... I guess that's just the fact of life; one can't get it all!


I really think the next generation, (or the next thereafter) will be a killer if they are able to fix the blacks and not loose too much of the color fidelity... I just jumped on the wagon a bit too early... To bad for me I guess...
 

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Jon:


Have you ever demoed the Panny or Fujitsu?


24% tax, ouch. Do you guys have like no income tax to make up for that?
 

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Quote:
but viewing these units in the stores simply does not give the right impression. They are kinda like LCD projectors; they look magnificent with bright scenes and animation (try to see what the shops are displaying), but when you get home and put on a regular movie you will have an entirely different experience.
Ah, so you did demo the unit before you bought. This was not clear in your first post. You do bring up a good point about the light in the store vs at your home however. I saw your other post on this subject also and agree with Mark Taylor in that other thread. If you do watch in darkness then, WAF notwithstanding, FP is prolly the best way to go. However, I would wager that most ppl are not going to watch in darkness so recommending demoing in darkness is not valid for these ppl as they should demo in the kind of light that they will be watching with.
 

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So are we saying there are no plasmas in existence (even the Pannys or Fujitsus) that will give a black black in total darkness?
 

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I spent quite a bit of time in a local store watching plasmas. I concur with the forum regarding better blacks on the Panasonic and better black detail on the Pioneer. A Sony and Sampo? looked washed out and gray compared to the Panny and Pioneer. I'll have to go back and compare them at closing time and see if they'll turn the lights off.


Oddly enough they won't put the Panasonic and Pioneer facing the same direction or near each other (supposedly a stipulation from Pioneer).


I also watched a Fujitsu that looked better in dim light versus bright but didn't get to see it in total darkness.


So far my favorite plasma is the Panasonic 42". I'm hoping for even better picture quality and cheaper prices this Xmas (I can dream can't I).
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes, we actually pay about 50% income tax in addition to the 24% product tax... No wonder half the country fled to the US!


I have also seen the Panasonic / JVC 42" model. It looked very similar to the Pioneer in the light shop surroundings (except for the light output and the color fidelity, which were better on the Pioneer). I have not seen the unit in a darkened room, but after my last inspection, the blacks did not look that much better than on the Pioneer. Of course, I would have to see the unit in the same surroundings as the Pioneer to conclude on this matter...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Eivind Lygren
Yes, we actually pay about 50% income tax in addition to the 24% product tax... No wonder half the country fled to the US!
I will have to agree fully on this, although I live in the country next to yours. We have an incometax margin of 56% (at least I have), and the salestax is 25%. On top of this the company I work for pay an addition of 33.05% in what is called Social tax....


So, a bit simplified, I only get 25% of what I earn...
 

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Holy crap! Are wages particularly high in Scandanavia to make up for that? I thought the standard of living was high there. Here in the US, I am in a high income bracket and I get to keep a touch over 60% of what I earn. Even so, Americans often complain about high taxation. I have to guess that you guys are well taken care of by the government if you are out of work, and you probably all get at least basic health care, employed or not.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Eivind Lygren
Yes, we actually pay about 50% income tax in addition to the 24% product tax... No wonder half the country fled to the US!
25 % VAT here, and 50-60 % income tax as well.


Add 180 % to the price of cars and you'll hear us scream!


Car price of BMW M5 in Sweden:

716.000 SEK ($70.000)


In Denmark:

1.983.000 SEK. ($194.000) :mad:


Strongly considering a move to Sweden... :rolleyes:
 

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Careful you Norwegians out there making comments like "in this communist country". Here in the UK we know you are joking but those of a more North American persuasion won't and they have a tendency to want to liberate poor oppressed overtaxed downtrodden freedom fighters like you. :) Those tanks of theirs will make a nasty mess of the avenues.......
 
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