for movies. I have a fairly large room, 25'x15' and want a good dependable sub. I am going to purchase the RF3, RC3 & SS1 to go along with probably the Pioneer 45TX. I have no way to listen to the SVS sub - preferably the box type. Can anyone help me out?
Pioneer 45A or Denon 1600
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Quote:
Have you actually SEEN the Chroma Bug with the 45A?
I have had the 45A since October and have a properly calibrated display. The scenes that are said to show this horrible bug DO NOT show it.
I have yet to see a post from anyone that owns the player that actually said they see it with the famous 5th Element and Toy Story scenes. If they do, I would really like to see a screen shot that shows it.
And I am not trying to be an apologist for the 45A. I just want to see what is supposed to happen when I play an offending scene.
Of course, YMMV.
BGL
| How do you feel about the Chroma bug? The Pioneer has it, the Denon does not. |
I have had the 45A since October and have a properly calibrated display. The scenes that are said to show this horrible bug DO NOT show it.
I have yet to see a post from anyone that owns the player that actually said they see it with the famous 5th Element and Toy Story scenes. If they do, I would really like to see a screen shot that shows it.
And I am not trying to be an apologist for the 45A. I just want to see what is supposed to happen when I play an offending scene.
Of course, YMMV.
BGL
Quote:
As I understand it, the chroma upsampling error is in the MPEG decoder and affect both progressive and interlaced video output. It's just "easier" to see with progressive output.
Peace...
| Originally posted by bnewt Does the chroma bug show in progressive or interlaced? |
Peace...
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I do not doubt that it exists, but the scenes from 5th Element and Toy Story do not show anything even remotely resembling the screen shots at Secrets.
Are there other reference scenes that will show it in a more pronounced fashion? Is a properly calibrated display likely to minimize the effect?
I have followed many threads related to the 45A, here and at the HTF. You are the first user to actually say that they have seen it. And I do not dispute that, but in real world systems, no one that has looked has seen anything to complain about.
As it says in the article, I perhaps should consider that fact that I don't see it a good thing, and call it a day!
BGL
| I've personally seen the chroma bug on a 45A. I guarantee you it was present on the one we looked at, and I don't know of any reason to suspect that they've changed the MPEG decoder since then. |
Are there other reference scenes that will show it in a more pronounced fashion? Is a properly calibrated display likely to minimize the effect?
I have followed many threads related to the 45A, here and at the HTF. You are the first user to actually say that they have seen it. And I do not dispute that, but in real world systems, no one that has looked has seen anything to complain about.
As it says in the article, I perhaps should consider that fact that I don't see it a good thing, and call it a day!
BGL
First off, forget the Fifth Element scene. It's not a great scene to find the bug. Stacey wishes he had never put that picture in the article. On players with unbelievably bad chroma bug, you can see it clearly on the Fifth Element scene, but on most players it's pretty subtle. The primary material we use is Toy Story and Monsters Inc., though there are a bunch of other movies that are good, like Moulin Rouge and lots of animated films (Mulan is a great one). The microphone that Woody is holding in chapter 4 of Toy Story is generally a really good indicator, once you know what it's supposed to look like.
There are a bunch of possible reasons why a person might not see the chroma bug:
- The TV may not be focused as tightly as possible, which tends to blur the image slightly.
- The DVD player may be set for "field pause" which will hide the bug when paused, which is how most people look for the bug. We look for it with the movie running.
- The deinterlacer on the player may have film mode turned off (PureCinema on the 45A -- make sure it's in Auto, or Auto 1 if it has two auto modes).
- Finally, it's amazing how people can stare right at an artifact and not see it. I've personally had people be unable to see the bug, but as soon as I came to their house and did a demo, it suddenly snapped into place for them. Heck, I had a player with the bug for 8 months and didn't notice it. Even though some films had odd problems with red objects, I chalked it up to bad transfers.
Ultimately, it's really hard to see the difference without having a reference right there to show what it's supposed to look like. If you can borrow a chroma-bug-free player like a Panasonic or JVC progressive, you could try watching the Toy Story scene on both.
There's always the chance that Pioneer has quietly fixed the problem on current models, but I don't think it's likely.
Ultimately, though, if you're happy with your player don't sweat it. I would never tell someone to get rid of a player that they like and meets their needs. If you start seeing the bug and it starts to bother you, that's the time to start shopping for a new player.
Best,
Don
There are a bunch of possible reasons why a person might not see the chroma bug:
- The TV may not be focused as tightly as possible, which tends to blur the image slightly.
- The DVD player may be set for "field pause" which will hide the bug when paused, which is how most people look for the bug. We look for it with the movie running.
- The deinterlacer on the player may have film mode turned off (PureCinema on the 45A -- make sure it's in Auto, or Auto 1 if it has two auto modes).
- Finally, it's amazing how people can stare right at an artifact and not see it. I've personally had people be unable to see the bug, but as soon as I came to their house and did a demo, it suddenly snapped into place for them. Heck, I had a player with the bug for 8 months and didn't notice it. Even though some films had odd problems with red objects, I chalked it up to bad transfers.
Ultimately, it's really hard to see the difference without having a reference right there to show what it's supposed to look like. If you can borrow a chroma-bug-free player like a Panasonic or JVC progressive, you could try watching the Toy Story scene on both.
There's always the chance that Pioneer has quietly fixed the problem on current models, but I don't think it's likely.
Ultimately, though, if you're happy with your player don't sweat it. I would never tell someone to get rid of a player that they like and meets their needs. If you start seeing the bug and it starts to bother you, that's the time to start shopping for a new player.
Best,
Don
bnewt:
Get the Denon. I had the 45A for a while and my TV did a better job with video than the 45A, i.e., sending out an interlaced signal to my TV was less offensive than sending out a progressive scan signal. The Pioneer video was not worth the money. I got rid of the 45A because of Pioneer customer service (actually, lack thereof and rudeness) but I am glad I did. The Pioneers also did quite poorly on the Home Theater Progressive Scan Shootout. You might look at the Denon 2900 however. It's a bit more than the other two but it is a universal player, no chroma bug and what looks like coherent bass management.
Get the Denon. I had the 45A for a while and my TV did a better job with video than the 45A, i.e., sending out an interlaced signal to my TV was less offensive than sending out a progressive scan signal. The Pioneer video was not worth the money. I got rid of the 45A because of Pioneer customer service (actually, lack thereof and rudeness) but I am glad I did. The Pioneers also did quite poorly on the Home Theater Progressive Scan Shootout. You might look at the Denon 2900 however. It's a bit more than the other two but it is a universal player, no chroma bug and what looks like coherent bass management.
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Thanks Don. Very good information.
I think I will politely ask that you stay out of my home theater room until I am ready to buy a new player!
I too would have doubts that Pioneer made any changes. Perhaps when the next batch or cheap chroma free players come out (a shame that the Panny 82 came and went, since it seems to do everything well), I can take a shot, buy one, and do a side by side.
At that point, the 45A will probably be demoted to audio only duties, but until then, I think I will keep me head comfortably in the sand.
Funny you mentioned Mulan. One of our families favorite movies. We have seen it dozens of times, but not recently, and never on the 45A. I think I will stare a bit more intently the next time we screen it....or not!
BGL
I think I will politely ask that you stay out of my home theater room until I am ready to buy a new player!
I too would have doubts that Pioneer made any changes. Perhaps when the next batch or cheap chroma free players come out (a shame that the Panny 82 came and went, since it seems to do everything well), I can take a shot, buy one, and do a side by side.
At that point, the 45A will probably be demoted to audio only duties, but until then, I think I will keep me head comfortably in the sand.
Funny you mentioned Mulan. One of our families favorite movies. We have seen it dozens of times, but not recently, and never on the 45A. I think I will stare a bit more intently the next time we screen it....or not!
BGL
Quote:
Yes, I personally have seen the chroma bug with the 45A. 
dmunsil covered most of it in his post. In my experience many people actually see the bug, but do not realize what it is. I have heard many times "I thought that was just the way dvds were". When shown a player without the chroma bug, they are often amazed, as they have never heard of the bug, but it clearly exists with some players.
| Originally posted by BGLeduc Have you actually SEEN the Chroma Bug with the 45A? |
dmunsil covered most of it in his post. In my experience many people actually see the bug, but do not realize what it is. I have heard many times "I thought that was just the way dvds were". When shown a player without the chroma bug, they are often amazed, as they have never heard of the bug, but it clearly exists with some players.
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Does anyone know whether the bug exists on the DV47Ai (the latest Pioneer player)?
Quote:
Yes, it does.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...rch&articles=5
| Originally posted by adamgoldberg Does anyone know whether the bug exists on the DV47Ai (the latest Pioneer player)? |
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...rch&articles=5
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While I am still having trouble seeing the Chroma Bug with the 45A (I recently looked at Toy Story Chapter 4, and man, it still seems pretty subtle on my rig) I did see a glaring problem that I think is also addressed in the Secrets write up.
What I think I am seeing is called combing, and it is NOT subtle. What is odd is that I have watched hundreds of discs with this player, and this is the first time I have seen this, and thus far only with one particlar disc.
The disc in question is 101 Dalmations II, Patches Adventure. While watching this disc, I see moments where certain sections of certain scenes show huge horizontal line stucture, and then it goes away. This happens throughout the entire disc.
I wish I could post a screen shot, but if you have this player, and have this disc, you will see it (assuming your player and mine have the same software, and Pure Cinema is turned on).
Right at the start of chapter 2, the dad walks through an open doorway....his shirt will suddenly have horizontal lines across it. In Chapter 5, there are some poodles that jump around...there are all sorts of horizontal lines that appear, and then clear when they stop moving.
What I have discovered is that the problem seems to relate to 3:2 Pull Down (Pure Cinema in Pioneer speak). If I turn off Pure Cinema, that problem goes away.
One good thing about the 45A is that there is a flag that appears when you turn on the disc display (where you see elapsed time, sound format, etc.). It sets a # in the display if the disc is flagged as Film based.
On this disc, that flag is constantly, erratically turning on and off. And what I have noticed is that when I see the combing (assuming that that is what I am seeing), it turns off.
I checked a few other titles, and found that in some cases (Hunchback of Notre Dame II) the flag does toggle, but in a somewhat consistent pattern, and I never see combing on that disc. I also popped in Apollo 13 and found that the flag was constant (the picture looked pretty good too).
I know the Secrets write up said that this player was a flag reader, and that this was NOT a good thing with DVDs that were improperly flagged. I suspect I have found a disc that is seriously screwed up with regard to flagging, and it really shows this shortcoming of the player.
I hope Don peaks in on this and can offer a comment or two.
Brian
What I think I am seeing is called combing, and it is NOT subtle. What is odd is that I have watched hundreds of discs with this player, and this is the first time I have seen this, and thus far only with one particlar disc.
The disc in question is 101 Dalmations II, Patches Adventure. While watching this disc, I see moments where certain sections of certain scenes show huge horizontal line stucture, and then it goes away. This happens throughout the entire disc.
I wish I could post a screen shot, but if you have this player, and have this disc, you will see it (assuming your player and mine have the same software, and Pure Cinema is turned on).
Right at the start of chapter 2, the dad walks through an open doorway....his shirt will suddenly have horizontal lines across it. In Chapter 5, there are some poodles that jump around...there are all sorts of horizontal lines that appear, and then clear when they stop moving.
What I have discovered is that the problem seems to relate to 3:2 Pull Down (Pure Cinema in Pioneer speak). If I turn off Pure Cinema, that problem goes away.
One good thing about the 45A is that there is a flag that appears when you turn on the disc display (where you see elapsed time, sound format, etc.). It sets a # in the display if the disc is flagged as Film based.
On this disc, that flag is constantly, erratically turning on and off. And what I have noticed is that when I see the combing (assuming that that is what I am seeing), it turns off.
I checked a few other titles, and found that in some cases (Hunchback of Notre Dame II) the flag does toggle, but in a somewhat consistent pattern, and I never see combing on that disc. I also popped in Apollo 13 and found that the flag was constant (the picture looked pretty good too).
I know the Secrets write up said that this player was a flag reader, and that this was NOT a good thing with DVDs that were improperly flagged. I suspect I have found a disc that is seriously screwed up with regard to flagging, and it really shows this shortcoming of the player.
I hope Don peaks in on this and can offer a comment or two.
Brian
Brian,
Yup, you got it. And there's a much more subtle problem with flag reading - when the pictures on the disc are flagged like video (progressive_frame = false), the 45A switches to video deinterlacing, and it's pretty bare-bones in that area. Video-mode deinterlacing is not as immediately jarring as combing, so you may have watched whole movies in video mode and not known it. Whenever you're watching a film and that indicator on the display is off, you're missing out on detail and sharpness you could get with a better deinterlacer.
Sadly, there are lots and lots of films that are flagged like video for all or part of the running time. Not just small-potatoes films either; many very big-name DVDs have a least a few sections where they drop to video-style flagging for no apparent reason. For a list, take a look at our guide to the shootout, where Stacey put together a chart. Of the films we looked at, the majority had a problem and made it onto the chart. There were a handful of films from Paramount that were clean all the way through.
Most of the films in the chart only drop to video flagging for short sections of a few seconds or less. Some have asked us if it is really that important if a player drops to video mode for a few seconds here and there during a movie. In some cases, it matters a lot. The complaints about "shimmering" on the Sony 999ES were because the player was switching to video mode deinterlacing when it didn't need to, causing excessive moire on high-detail backgrounds. We noted it in the shootout (the "Super Speedway" test). And even if the drop to video mode doesn't produce a really obvious artifact like the shimmering, it's still making the film look worse.
Don
Yup, you got it. And there's a much more subtle problem with flag reading - when the pictures on the disc are flagged like video (progressive_frame = false), the 45A switches to video deinterlacing, and it's pretty bare-bones in that area. Video-mode deinterlacing is not as immediately jarring as combing, so you may have watched whole movies in video mode and not known it. Whenever you're watching a film and that indicator on the display is off, you're missing out on detail and sharpness you could get with a better deinterlacer.
Sadly, there are lots and lots of films that are flagged like video for all or part of the running time. Not just small-potatoes films either; many very big-name DVDs have a least a few sections where they drop to video-style flagging for no apparent reason. For a list, take a look at our guide to the shootout, where Stacey put together a chart. Of the films we looked at, the majority had a problem and made it onto the chart. There were a handful of films from Paramount that were clean all the way through.
Most of the films in the chart only drop to video flagging for short sections of a few seconds or less. Some have asked us if it is really that important if a player drops to video mode for a few seconds here and there during a movie. In some cases, it matters a lot. The complaints about "shimmering" on the Sony 999ES were because the player was switching to video mode deinterlacing when it didn't need to, causing excessive moire on high-detail backgrounds. We noted it in the shootout (the "Super Speedway" test). And even if the drop to video mode doesn't produce a really obvious artifact like the shimmering, it's still making the film look worse.
Don
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