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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have tried to see the chroma bug on a Pioneer 47ai. The two spots on the Fifth Element disk ( Red button and Zorg sign ) are not there! I replayed these sections every way possible, Shrek,Ice Age and Monsters Inc. all looked outstanding.


I have this player and a Kenwood DV-5700 but will only keep one. Both have excellent pictures, but the Pioneer is slightly better and can be tweaked more to make older or poor Dvds look good.So unless someone can tell me where I can see the Chroma Bug on this player Ill take the Kenwood back.



Thanks
 

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chroma bug? What chroma bug? I haven't seen it either on this player.

I am enthralled watching DVDs on this machine. Just love it!
 

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The chroma bug does exist on the 47ai. Look at chapter 4 of Toy Story 1. Look at the solid reds on can that Woody is standing on. But it's very mild and not as prominent as on the Sony 999, which has other deinterlacing artifacts not present on the 47ai. I have the 47ai (having returned the Sony 999) and the chroma bug is seen so rarely and is so mild, that I don't mind. I think the 47ai is a great DVD player. I also like the DVD Audio and SACD. I've never seen the Kenwood, so I can't comment on it.
 

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The Zorg sign is really not a great test. Believe me, Stacey is unhappy that he ever used it as an example. When he was putting together examples, he was using a player that had the chroma bug so bad, essentially every scene with any saturated color looked outrageously bad. With most current players, the Zorg sign is pretty subtle. That said, I do see it on the sign and it does bother me, but it's much less obvious than Toy Story.


There are several scenes in Monsters Inc. that are good (for example, near the beginning of the movie when Mike and Sully are arguing about taking the car, the top and sides of the car are awful), though the colors are more muted in Monsters Inc, which makes the bug harder to see. Of course Toy Story and Toy Story 2 are the gold standard for chroma bug. Moulin Rouge looks pretty bad in places. Shanghai Noon has lots of saturated colors, especially red. Mulan is another good contender, as is most Anime. That's just off the top of my head. In my normal movie watching, I only use a player without chroma bug, so I'm not sure which recent films are best for showing it.


The 47ai actually has, to my eye, a worse chroma bug than the Sony players, and among the worst out there. But Toy Story chapter 4 is about as bad as you're going to see, so if you find it acceptable, then I'd say you don't have a problem.


Best,

Don
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Don, The Red Button in Fifth Element did not have it either.Ill look at Monsters again tomorrow. I hope it doesn't bother me,Cause this is the best picture Ive seen on my Sharp.


Thanks for the help
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK, now I see it. While it is not that bad , it is there and if it was on a sub $500.00 player I might be able to live with it, but not for a $1000.00. What a shame, Because the Pioneer is superior in all other aspects.




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We definitely saw the chroma bug on the 47ai with the Toy Story discs. Additionally, the picture was markedly and demonstrably worse than the Denon DVD-3800 we were testing at the same time. On the other hand, the Pioneer has SACD (which the Denon does not) and slightly better sound overall. It is less expensive, also. In our case, picture quality is the primary focus, so we kept the Denon.


The Yamaha S2300 is supposedly the Pioneer 47ai with better video. I am hoping it hits the local stores before my 30 days is up on the Denon so that I can do the Pepsi challenge on those two. Otherwise I will be happy with the Denon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The 47ai is not plug and play, but once you figure out how to work all the settings ( almost to many ) the picture is very good, better than the two faroudja equipped players Ive seen. Its just to bad they did not fix the chroma error.
 

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Hi,


The chroma bug is now harder to see than ever! Few days ago I saw a Pioneer 57ai (yes, 57, the universal player) running via SDI (modded of course) on my system. I know it has chroma bug and I looked for it. And I couldn't find any problem after checked many problem scenes. The Red looked almost as good as my Panasonic RA71.


Finally, I tried the Metropolis (r1, anime) final scene with the Red all over. Well, the chroma bug was all over my big screen!


regards,


Li On
 

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Don,


what about the THX-certified players? Both new Onkyo and Integra universal players are supposedly based on the 47A (this is an assumption based on what I have read so far) and both have THX certification. Even the new Marantz player.


If the assumption is true then doesn't THX certification take in to account the chroma bug problem? I mean the players shouldn't be certified if there is a chroma bug, right? Again I am not sure how this certification works.
 

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Well, sure, I think the THX certification for DVD players *should* take into account the chroma bug, but it clearly doesn't, as all those players have it bad.


But then again, according to THX, they are supposedly checking Y/C delay, and their first two certified players, the DV-09 and DV-05, have *horrible* Y/C delay. Makes you go hmmmm....


Don
 

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Does the 47ai suffer from the Y/C delay?
 

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Yes, the 47ai has some Y/C delay, but not as bad as the other two. On the 47ai both chroma channels are shifted the same direction, which is less visible than the problem on the 09 and 05, where the two chroma channels were shifted in opposite directions, causing colored fringes on the left and right side of objects.


It's still more Y/C delay than I'd expect from such an expensive player.


Don
 

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fizbin,


So ........... you don't seem to see the chroma bug using the Denon 3800? Is this a 3800 you installed the firmware patch on yourself - or a late one with the fix from the factory?


My 3800 is one I patched myself with the Denon CD and I can't see any chroma bug anywhere in Toy Story - including after careful examination of chapter 4 reds. However, I'm only using a CRT-based 58 inch screen, so maybe what chroma bug is there in a patched 3800 will take a fixed-pixel display or a larger screen size display to see.


Stacey made me real nervous the other day in a post where he said something to the affect that he was still seeing the chroma bug in a firmware patched 3800, so he was asking for another copy of the 3800 patch CD. I hope he gets back to us on what he sees in the DVD-3800 after trying another patch disc on the particular 3800 unit he was testing.
 

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Quote:
Stacey made me real nervous the other day in a post where he said something to the affect that he was still seeing the chroma bug in a firmware patched 3800, so he was asking for another copy of the 3800 patch CD.
Why are you nervous when you can't see it on your 58 inch CRT? If Stacey says that he saw the chroma bug with a patched Denon 3800, does it mean you will stop "enjoying" movies on your Denon? even though, you know you can't see it! Is this a ChromaBugSyndrome?


After reading through several posts, I am amazed at the inconsistency regarding this chroma bug.


it seems, THX doesn't care about it.

it manifests more on animated movies and that too having more color - Li On couldn't see on Toy Story, supposedly the reference disc for the chroma bug but saw the same on Metropolis

again its seen on bigger screen sizes, I guess.
 

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We just checked the 3800. The firmware patch fixes the bug.


For what it's worth, while the chroma bug is certainly easier to see on larger, higher-resolution screens, I've seen it on a 20" interlaced TV. In that particular case, it was an Echostar receiver that is known to have a particularly bad chroma upsampling problem.


My feeling is that the biggest factor in whether you see the bug is whether you've been able to compare a player with the bug against one without the bug. Without the baseline to compare against, it's hard to separate the chroma bug from artifacts in the transfer.


Second biggest factor is screen size & clarity.


Third biggest factor is viewing distance from the screen, which is really a different way of saying "screen size." :)


Don
 

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nakenergy,


"........ does it mean you will stop "enjoying" movies on your Denon?....."


In a word - yes, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


I bought my 3800 for video perfection at my affordability price point only after Denon claimed the chroma upsampling error had been fixed in the model ........ so:


A) I want what I paid for


B) I'm learning each day more about the elements that make up HT perfection, so not "seeing it" now in my patched 3800 does not mean I won't see it later as I learn and continue with the fine tuning of my system end-to-end. I'm now into the ultra-subtlies of HT video and any remaining chroma bug in my 3800 may begin to show up as I readjust/maintain such things as: mechanical focus, electrical focus, non-linear horizontal enhancement, Pr/Pb individual amplitude matching, progressive dark area gamma correction, interlaced full field gamma correction, S-Video to component conversion, remote PC drive, etc..


C) Why not "consult the experts" (some who post in this forum) up front, and early, as to whether or not the 3800 "really has it even though I don't think I see it at this time."


I don't like to have my head in the sand on anything. Whether or not I can afford to get, and keep, my head out of the sand is of course another matter. ;) :D
 

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Don,


You just made my day ......... or should I say "my nights" - as I watch movies only at night because my HT room window shades are not the best!


So............I guess I have to apologize to Stacey. He stated over 1 1/2 years ago that some decoders could be corrected via external firmware code so it was soooooo dumb that OEM's weren't correcting it in certain decoders they were using in their players. At the time I kinda took exception to that - not intuitively feeling it was possible without revising decoder silicon. Apparently the CD patch to the ESS decoder did the trick and proved Stacey's assertion.


Stacey - consider yourself apologized to! You were right again. ;)
 

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I've got the 47ai and am completely satisfied! If you look hard enough your going to find problems with any player. Yes, in selected scenes the c.b. is noticable, but only because it was pointed out to me! In my opinion it's hard to imagine getting a better picture from a dvd, period.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by danman
In my opinion it's hard to imagine getting a better picture from a dvd, period.
In my opinion it is not very hard at all. Just get a Panasonic rp82.


Chris
 
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