Pioneer 578 + Multi-Channel SACD = No BASS

grrr223, I think you're SOL unless you buy a subwoofer.


The only "bass management" the 578a has is the ability to send bass from your speaker channels to the dedicated sub channel. You're trying to do the exact opposite, and the 578a is incapable of doing this.


I discovered this with the "bass management" test track from the Chesky "Ultimate DVD Surround Sampler & 5.1 Set-Up Disc". I had my front speakers set to "large" and sub "off", so according to the documenation for the Chesky disc, I should have heard the 60 Hz tone from my front channels. I heard nothing. When I hooked up a sub to the analog subwoofer output of the 578a, I heard the tone on the sub.


You may also run into problems with distortion depending on how your speakers are set. I was getting horrible distortion on the Hotel California DVD-A with my fronts set to "large" and everything else "small". Changing the fronts to "small" eliminated the problem.


As far as I can tell, the 578a only sounds good playing hi-res multichannel audio on the analog outputs if you have all your speakers set to "small" and a subwoofer on the sub channel.


I'm pretty pissed at Pioneer myself, as the player doesn't behave as the manual indicates it should, but I suppose this is what we get in a $150 universal player.


By the way, I agree that the Chesky Surround Show disc isn't that great -- I play a track or two every now and then as a novelty, but it really isn't worth the price. I do recommend the Ultimate disc I mentioned above, though. It has fantastic system test tracks and some quite nice multichannel 96/24 music tracks.


-PolarWeasel

Thanks guys, yeah, I think you're right PolarWeasel, I'm SOL, AND mad at Pioneer.


Unfortunately, I don't want to buy a sub at the moment. My Klipsch KSF-8.5s put out more than enough bass for my needs, esp. since I live in an apt building. And they sound awesome when I play that disc on 2 channel (with the bass). It's just multi-channel.


Is there a DVD-Audio test disc that I can test this on to see if it's doing the same thing (eliminating the LFE channel if I doni't have a sub). I have Metallica's Black Album on DVD-Audio which sounds awesome but I don't know if I'm missing anything.


I don't know what to do since apparently my DVD player is more than 30 days old so I can't return it to Tweeter, damnit.


So, now I'd just like to clarify what is happening here, is this correct:


When I listen in 2 channel SACD, all of the bass is recorded in those two channels so it plays correctly through my large front speakers.


But when I listen to the 5.1 SACD layer, all that bass has been moved to the LFE channel and the 578 is not capapble of adding the LFE channel bass to my front speakers? (only of taking bass from channels marked as small and moving it to the sub?)

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PaulT_BC responded:

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Unfortunately, Paul, from what I can tell after using the Chesky "Ultimate DVD Surround Sampler & 5.1 Set-Up Disc", the 578a *cannot* redirect bass from the LFE channel to the speaker channels. It doesn't matter whether they're set to "small" or "large". From what I've seen in a few other threads on the 578a, the speaker size setting only sets the crossover to 80 Hz ("large") or 120 Hz ("small") for redirecting bass *from* the speakers *to* the subwoofer.


FYI, grr223, the Chesky disc is DVD-A. It's really a great disc.


grr223, you are mostly correct in your description; however, the amount of bass in the LFE channel on 5.1 SACD/DVD-A recordings is entirely dependent upon the mixing. The LFE channel may not be used at all (i.e. all bass is in the speakers). If, however, the studio engineer *did* use the LFE channel, you lose any bass that has been mixed onto that channel unless you have a sub.


I'll describe how I arrived at this conclusion. I didn't have a sub on the LFE channel of my Denon AVR-4802 receiver, but I did on my front channels. So, in the speaker setup menu for my 578a, I set subwoofer to "off", fronts to "large", and center & rears to "small". I thought everything sounded fine.


I then purchased the Chesky DVD-A disc mentioned above. One of the tracks is a bass management test in which a 60 Hz tone is played over the LFE channel. My speaker configuration, according to the 578a manual, *should* have resulted in the tone appearing on my front speakers. The Chesky documentation says something like "if your player has bass management and it's working properly, you should hear this tone on your front speakers. If it doesn't have bass management, you should hear it on your LFE channel". I heard absolutely nothing at all -- but I had no sub on my LFE channel.


I moved one of my subs to the LFE channel, and immediately heard the tone. I think this proves without a doubt that the 578a can't redirect any bass on the LFE channel to the speakers.


Furthermore, with sub "on", fronts "large", and everything else "small", I get horrible distortion on the Eagles "Hotel California" DVD-A. The only way I've found to eliminate this is to set my fronts to "small".


In short, the bass management on the 578a sucks.


-PolarWeasel

Polarweasal, thanks again, I think I will check out that Chesky DVD-A disc, although it's just going to confirm what we've already established:


The bass management in the 578 is not fully functional.



Just to clear up everyone else who stumbles upon this thread, this has nothing to do with the settings on the 578, we have already tried everything, and the way it should work (front speakers set to large, and no subwoofer) just eliminates any bass that might be in the LFE channel.


My only question now is:


Is there any way to identify how it is recorded on the discs?


The only reason I was able to identify it at all is because I was listening to a track labeled "heartbeat 50hz" and I couldn't hear anything. I just wish I could know if I was missing anything in the music or not.

Quote:
Thanks to filmosound, in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...02#post4289102


We have these instructions:


Power on the player

- Go to Home Menu

- Choose "Initial Settings"

- Go down to Options (not enter sub menu)

- Press Display on Remote


I'm going to call Pioneer rather than email them -- sometimes speaking to a real person helps accentuate the urgency of a problem.


-PolarWeasel