AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
216 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi


When outputting SACD down the iLink, and using the players BM, is it first converted to PCM ?


If you don't use the BM, then does the DSFD signal stay in one piece ?


I am thinking of pairing a 59AVi / 868AVi with the new Yamaha Z9. If you feed DSD into the Z9 via iLink, it would appear that the amp's BM is lost, hence the questions.


Many thanks


Tom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
492 Posts
Hi Tom

If you use the 868i with the AX5i, then the 868i doesn't convert to PCM.

This is because the AX5i has the DSD chipset built in, the AX10i doesn't etc.

As for using another brand, i have no idea!


Paul...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,261 Posts
Hi Tom.

I don't know about the 59AVi specifically but for the 47AVi when the SACD goes through the firewire (iLink) the player's BM do not apply and it is up to the receiver to do the BM (which sounds logical to me). So, if you pair the 59AVi with the Z9, the Z9 should do BM on the firewire connection. The other firewire compatible SACD player, the SONY XA9000ES, also behaves that way, when going through firewire the players BM are off (and any other settings as well).

Take care,

Sergio:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
216 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the replies guys.


So, if you use SACD and iLink with the Yamaha Z9, it would appear that you can't do any bass management anywhere !


I hope I'm wrong.


So, if you have an AX5i, then does that allow you to turn the DSD into PCM and then apply BM etc ?


Tom.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
I think Yamaha Z9 has NPC DSD/PCM converter, and the only reason to have that chip is to provide the capability to do post processing such as BM on DSD contents. Are you sure that Z9 doesn't offer that feature?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,261 Posts
I'm assuming the AX5i is the US 55Txi. As I do not have the 55TXi I could not say but I belive you can. In the 49TXi you can apply BM not only on the firewire but also on the analogue multi-channel.:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
I have read in another thread that ALL DVD players and A/V receivers have to convert DSD to PCM if you want them to offer full BM and time delay functions for SACD. If that is the case, the best way to maintain pure DSD, you have to disable the BM and time delay features.


Can anybody shed more light on this issue?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,277 Posts
ptpli,


You are right that conversion is required for BM. But delay doesn't require that covnersion. You can delay 1-bit samples in DSP memory easily.


One point that I have and want to share is, pure DSD implementation doesn't make sense. Since DSD master is now already 8-bit, those conversion from/to multi-bit to/from 1-bit happens at the mastering/delivery process of ANY SACD. I am not saying that DSD sound quality is a "crap", but that "pure analog-like" DSD hype has nothing to pay attention to. If the conversion is done right (I believe so), you would lose little, and gain a lot more such as flexibility by allowed post-processing such as BM, virtualizer, matrixing, EQs, etc.


If you still insist on pure DSD playback, that's okay, but I just want to let you know that delay is still okay with pure DSD chain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Thank you for the info. I am not too concerned with the purity of DSD. I have two players: one for SACD and one for DVD-A. I actually find SACD sounds better than DVD-A. I listen to classical music. What I am trying to find out is that there is little difference between the two formats. They should converge into one in the near future, at least from the technical point of view.


Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,760 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by ptpli
I have two players: one for SACD and one for DVD-A. I actually find SACD sounds better than DVD-A. I listen to classical music. What I am trying to find out is that there is little difference between the two formats. They should converge into one in the near future, at least from the technical point of view. Peter
Peter,

Actually the difference in SACD and DVD-A sounding is in your players, not in formats ... this is if we are talking about the new DVD-A Advanced resolution and SACD multi-channel. If we will take in mind the previous DVD-A and stereo SACD, there can be no comparison - some SACD disks had been produced through PCM conversion and mastering, some DVD-A had 24 bit 48 kHz resolution, and the first ones even 20 bit 48kHz, etc ... you need to compare particular disks.

High resolution DVD-A and SACD are almost the same (without taking in mind the digital noises in SACD that can be filtered), here is the confirmation: http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/surr...image_20.shtml
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Gordon:


Thanks for your comment. I agree that the sound difference has more to do with my players. I use an entry-level SACD player (Sony DVP-NC650V) and an entry-level DVD-A player (Pioneer DV-563A). I find my SACD player has a better sound than my DVD-A player, but the difference is not huge. I have two versions of Telarc's Tchaikosky 1812: one is SACD version (pure 6.0 DSD recording) and the other is DVD-A version (24/96/5.1). The SACD version sounds slightly better.


I did read the reviews you mentioned in the web link, and cauld not decide which was better. That is why I have players for both formats.


I do have a question for you. I know you have tons of real experience (especially with system modifications). Do all SACD players have to internally convert DSD to PCM for BM and time delay features? Thanks.


Peter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,760 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by ptpli
Gordon:

Thanks for your comment. I agree that the sound difference has more to do with my players. I use an entry-level SACD player (Sony DVP-NC650V) and an entry-level DVD-A player (Pioneer DV-563A). I find my SACD player has a better sound than my DVD-A player, but the difference is not huge. I have two versions of Telarc's Tchaikosky 1812: one is SACD version (pure 6.0 DSD recording) and the other is DVD-A version (24/96/5.1). The SACD version sounds slightly better.

I did read the reviews you mentioned in the web link, and cauld not decide which was better. That is why I have players for both formats.

I do have a question for you. I know you have tons of real experience (especially with system modifications). Do all SACD players have to internally convert DSD to PCM for BM and time delay features? Thanks.

Peter
Peter,

You are welcome. The new Sony 9000ES player has the specially designed DSP processor for DSD stream, the technology is based on E-chip, the same as in SADiE, the professional editing system for SACD multichannel mastering. You can get some info here (page 8): http://www.docs.sony.com/release/SCDXA9000ES_TWP.pdf

And here:
http://www.jamminpower.com/PDF/DSD%2...g%20System.htm

As far as I know this is the only one player with such ability, but it doesn't support DVD-A.

Though one doesn't need to be afraid of DSD->PCM conversion, there is nothing wrong in it. Usually specially designed for this purpuse chip does it - for example SM5816 at 32bit 88.2 kHz, and this is equal to the native SACD resolution 32bit*88,200=1bit*2,822,400 . Then SACD format had beed specifically designed to be converted to PCM, when necessary, without any losses in the sound quality (SACD downconversion picture): http://www.merging.com/2002/html/sacd.htm

The problem with losses is when you need to convert DSD to PCM, edit it and then convert back to DSD ... this is why this aspect had been discussed so widely ...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,878 Posts
There is some news I will be posting soon about the DVD-5900 that will interest some of you in terms of DSD processing. In short, the 5900 in source direct mode does not ever convert to PCM and does full time alignment and channel levels; however, it does not do bass management. If you want bass management you have to convert to PCM. I will go over the reasons for this in my supplement that I am writing over at Secrets.


Denon has updated their website to include this info as well since their previous write up was exactly the opposite.


The problem with pure DSD, from a non-technical standpoint, is that there really isn't a way to verify that the signal is indeed DSD all the way to analog conversion without taking the manufacturers word for it. And I know that they should be telling the truth, but in many cases they aren't saying anything at all. I think if the process is done right it doesn't really matter as DSD converted to PCM still sounds excellent and the benefits of proper bass management and time alignment are too great to be ignored.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,760 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
There is some news I will be posting soon about the DVD-5900 that will interest some of you in terms of DSD processing. In short, the 5900 in source direct mode does not ever convert to PCM and does full time alignment and channel levels; however, it does not do bass management. If you want bass management you have to convert to PCM. I will go over the reasons for this in my supplement that I am writing over at Secrets.
Thank you, very interesting news. But technically I don't understand how it had been realized ... for the front channels they use PCM1790 (without DSD stream support, as far as I know), and for sub, center and surrond channels DSD1790 (with DSD stream support) ... how can time alignment be done without PCM conversion through PCM1790 DACs ... it is a secret for me.
Quote:
Denon has updated their website to include this info as well since their previous write up was exactly the opposite.
Interesting :D
Quote:
The problem with pure DSD, from a non-technical standpoint, is that there really isn't a way to verify that the signal is indeed DSD all the way to analog conversion without taking the manufacturers word for it. And I know that they should be telling the truth, but in many cases they aren't saying anything at all. I think if the process is done right it doesn't really matter as DSD converted to PCM still sounds excellent and the benefits of proper bass management and time alignment are too great to be ignored.
Agreed. See p.1 :cool:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,878 Posts
Quote:
Thank you, very interesting news. But technically I don't understand how it had been realized ... for the front channels they use PCM1790 (without DSD stream support, as far as I know), and for sub, center and surrond channels DSD1790 (with DSD stream support) ... how can time alignment be done without PCM conversion through PCM1790 DACs ... it is a secret for me.
I think you are referring to the 5803 receiver, I am referring to the DVD-5900. It only uses DSD 1790 DACs. The time alignment is being done in the Sony chip. It also allows for a fixed crossover for bass management at 80Hz but since this would mean that the "Source Direct" mode would have a crossover, Denon defeated it. Personally I would have liked to have seen a toggle for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,760 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I think you are referring to the 5803 receiver, I am referring to the DVD-5900. It only uses DSD 1790 DACs. The time alignment is being done in the Sony chip. It also allows for a fixed crossover for bass management at 80Hz but since this would mean that the "Source Direct" mode would have a crossover, Denon defeated it. Personally I would have liked to have seen a toggle for it.
I am referring to 5900 DVD player, and my info is from the Service Manual: http://www.angelfire.com/clone/gordon0/5900.PNG

I can not post the full list, it is HUGE, and if 5900 is visible, PCM1790 is too small to be seen, if I zoom to see PCM1790, 5900 is out of the screen, so I made secreenshots.

Actually 5803 receiver uses different PCM1738 DACs ...

Here is an another confirmation:
http://www.azone.ch/load-index.html?...1-Codefree.htm
Quote:
Audio D/A-Wandler L/R 192 kHz / 24-Bit (Burr Brown PCM1790)

Audio D/A-Wandler C/Sub 192 kHz / 24-Bit (Burr Brown DSD1790)

Audio D/A-Wandler SL/SR 192 kHz / 24-Bit (Burr Brown DSD1790)
Concerning TA, in what Sony chip is it being done? CXD2753 is an old standard DSD decoder without such ability (as far as I know) http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/...es/CXD2753.PNG It could not be CXD1818AR, it has no info about DSD signals on it's pins, it looks like it is photodiodes signal processing chip, and there are no more Sony chips in 5900 ... am I wrong?

(CXD2753 had been used in almost all DVD players with SACD support, it can be seen in my IC database at the web page, and no one used TA for DSD stream yet. Now we have some DSD decoders from Philips as well, but 5900 uses Sony decoder CXD2753)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,878 Posts
My fault, I got off track there. The 5900's DACs are all custom built to Denon's specification, which is why you won't find their specs on the TI site. I will ask their techs about the PCM DACs on the mains.


The Sony chip does support time alignment but other players may not be taking advantage of it. With source direct any condition that is defeated is greyed out and time alignment and level control are still fully functional. I talked with the Denon engineer today and he emphasized that the chip supported this. They just didn't use the fixed crossover, which I am skeptical about because I am still getting a lot of bass info in my sub with the source direct on that I don't get using a setup of large speakers.


Let me do some more digging and I'll let you know what I find.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,878 Posts
No, I will be reviewing it in the shootout, but not a full blown review.


Don't get me wrong, I would love to do a full review of it, but I can't get a review sample from Pioneer. I am using a friend's for the shootout which doesn't require me to bring it home.


If anyone is willing to give me a long term loan, I would love to review it.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top