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In a contribution to someone else's thread, you clarified that your own 810 is ailing with a burner problem:

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtofly /forum/post/19574397


I have a Pioneer 810H and I can confirm after several test, that my DVD burner will easily play DVD's, but it will no longer high speed dub from the HDD.(...) I am curious if replaceing either the laser sled or changing out the electronics board from a similiar burner would work, or would the laser have to be recalibrated?

You can replace the burner in your 810, but its tricky and hinges on finding a still-working generic Pioneer DVR-106 burner that was sold for PCs the same year your 810 was marketed. Like all Pioneer models prior to 2006, the 810 used the same burner Pioneer was selling for PCs but with a modified controller board that has a proprietary recorder communication chip (depending on your specific recorder, it may also include an oddball connector instead of EIDE).


So, after you find a working 106 burner, you'd remove and swap their green internal controller boards, then put the "new" burner back in your 810 (in essence, replacing every burner part except the circuit board). Unfortunately you would also need a service remote and service dvd to complete the repair. With Pioneer now out of the recorder business, we "fans" need to find workarounds for such items. The sevice or "ID Data" disc is part number GGV1256 or GGV1302, if you contact Hakan at his excellent pioneerfaq.info site he can steer you to a download of the disc image. The service remote used to be extremely difficult and expensive to acquire, but Sony has now begun selling a cheap "clone" of it to be sure their older Pioneer-based machines can still be repaired. The part number is J-6090-203-A, in the USA authorized techs can buy it for as little as $12 direct from Sony or the general public can pay $25 from retail remote websites like this .


Once you have these three pieces (replacement burner, service remote and service dvd), follow the instructions below to repair your 810 (actually any Pioneer recorder's HDD or burner). Note because the 810 is an oddball one-off marriage of Pioneer DVD and TiVO, some of the recorder menus might be different than expected (i.e., the TiVO interface replaces Pioneers own navigator), so references to "Home" and "Setup" menu may need to be re-interpreted if initializing a new HDD. The service mode menus activated by the service remote will be the same as any other Pioneer, and get you thru 100% of the burner replacement and 99% of an HDD replacement:


1. Install the new HDD or burner, making sure its jumper pin is set to "CS" or "Cable Select", not "Master" or "Slave".

2. Write down the nine digit code that appears on a small white label on the rear panel near the AC mains socket.

3. Power on the recorder, front panel and TV displays will show "HDD Err" or "Disc Err" alert.

4. Press ESC and then STEREO on the service remote. The service screen will appear on your TV.

5. Enter the 9 digit number you wrote down.

6. Press STOP

7. Press ESC then STEREO to re-engage service mode.

8. Enter the 9-digit CPRM sode again.

9. Press SEARCH.

10. TV will display "Input the ID Data Disc!": open the disc tray, insert the service disc, and close the tray. The recorder will take a moment to read the disc, then display "ROM Write OK!"

11. Open the tray and remove the service disc. DO NOT CLOSE THE EMPTY TRAY!

12. Press CLEAR on the service remote, TV display will clear.

With the tray still open, power off the recorder. Tray will close automatically.

13. Wait a moment, and turn the recorder back on.

STOP HERE if you were replacing the DVD burner. If you replaced the HDD instead, there are a couple more steps:


14. Using the normal remote that came with the recorder, set it to HDD mode.

15. Press HOME MENU, select DISC SETUP, then INITIALIZE HDD. A bar graph will appear on your TV screen, it usually takes no more than a minute or two to initialize the HDD. When your TV screen displays "Initialization Complete", exit the Home Menu/Setup screens.

16. The recorder should now operate normally. If you press the NAVIGATOR button, recording capacity indicated should match the size of the new HDD (i.e roughly 56 hours at SP on a 160GB HDD).

One final note: this is all much easier to do than explain, it takes a total of five minutes after you physically install the new drive in the recorder. BTW you cannot bypass the service remote or service disc requirement by simply getting a "donor" 810 and trying to do an even swap of drives: the recorder will still insist on the CPRM number matching procedure before it will work with the replacement drive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/19582558


timtofly, I was going to reply to your specific Pioneer 810 post but it was unclear there whether you just wanted another 810 as a spare or were trying to repair your existing recorder.

Thank You.


Well I was trying to do both. The reason is, I did not know if it would be easier swapping the hard drive or the burner. If the hard drive is tied to a particular unit, that won't help me either, I would still need the service remote and disk. If I had a spare, I would probably just keep making clones of the Hard Drive and Make a hard Drive Farm Machine. Unless there is a catch in doing that due to Hard Drive ID. I currently have three that catch the primetime shows, but a fourth would always be handy.


If I swap the hard drive to another unit will it retain the recordings? I was planning on cloning the hard drive this weekend to buy a little time. If I clone the drive will both drives work the same, or is there a HDD ID that is involved?


Thanks.
 

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Yes, the AO6 is the same as the 106 as far as the recorder is concerned, as long as you swap the recorder burners' controller board into the "new" burner.


Pioneer is relentless when it comes to the annoying service remote/service disc requirement: every recorder they have ever made, including those in partnership with Sony, need these tools to replace both the HDD and the burner. So even if you "clone" the HDD, the recorder will still balk until you do the CPRM procedure (this stores ID information about both drives in the motherboard of the recorder, which immediately dumps its memory the moment you disconnect the cables of either original drive).


I have never owned an 810, it and the two similar "Elite" models were only available in the 2003 model series and were the only Pioneers to include TiVO. Because of the TiVO, they use a completely different operating interface and its possible they store some of the TiVO system on the HDD itself. It would be wise to get the service disc and service remote now, so you can safely remove the HDD to clone it while its still "good" and then reinstall it (on the chance that there is some portion of TiVO-OS on the HDD). Given how sturdy the 810s and Elites have been over the years, I'm inclined to think the TiVO system is loaded completely into the motherboard firmware, with nothing crucial on the HDD. If that is the case, you wouldn't have to clone the old HDD at all, just replace it and initialize with the service tools (like every other Pio).


With the non-TiVO Pioneers, you can indeed move the HDD to another recorder and not lose the recordings on it (so long as you have the service tools). An HDD with recordings on it will already be formatted for Pioneer recorders, so the initialization step above would not be required, just the CPRM matching. Again, I have no direct experience repairing a TiVO Pioneer, they were mega-expensive in their day so none of my "customers" owned them or bring them to me. So I can't say for certain it would keep the recordings if you swap the HDD: Pioneers agreement with TiVO gave TiVO the upper hand in engineering. If TiVO in 2003 allowed "lossless" HDD swaps, the Pio version allows it, and vice versa. That would be my guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/19586149


Yes, the AO6 is the same as the 106 as far as the recorder is concerned, as long as you swap the recorder burners' controller board into the "new" burner.

I also saw some 106 of 2004 vintage that were for the Apple. Someone even had a lot of 4 factory refurbished. If these would work I may be set for quite sometime.


On a side note about the HDD. Using MSF tools from the Tivo Comunity I have already upgraded the original HDD with a newer one. Transferring via the bootdisk, the new drive has worked just fine. I suppose my question would be to a tivo expert, if in fact does the MSF prep the drive for installation just like a service disk would do? I could probably take this time to resize the drive again and do it that way. However ide drives are getting harder to come by and if I find the same size drive, doing a quick clone would get me up and running faster, until I can gather together all the necessary parts required. Unfortunately I am out of space. Cloning the drive, if it works, would allow me a second drive to "fill up". Then when I get the burner fixed, I can swap back and forth, until I can burn the shows to DVD. From what I have gathered, it may be possible to just put an image on the drive and insert it without any problems, so I guess that would be just the same as a clone. I am just not sure if there is not a prep for reinstalling a drive. If there is a prep needed, then having the unit available for swapping HDD in and out would not work for me.
 

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If you were already able to upgrade/change the HDD in one of your 810s using the TiVO-specific tools, and the recorder did not complain of an "HDD Err" or "CPRM Err", then you are good to go on the HDD side: apparently Pioneer did leave that entire section to TiVO. I agree, when swapping an HDD with existing videos on it, you should find out how its done on a "pure" TiVO and follow those instructions. Apparently this does not require the Pioneer service protocols.


Since the HDD section seems completely free from Pioneers usual draconian service tool requirement, its entirely possible the DVD section is also free of it, and all my detailed instructions about swapping burners in typical Pioneer recorders might not apply to the 810 and Elite models. You might not need the service tools at all, just swap the controller boards between old and new burners and drop the new one in. There is risk of a "gotcha", however: you might try it and only then discover the burner side still adheres to Pioneer's own repair procedure. If that happens, you'll have to set the unit aside until you can lay hands on the Sony service remote and the service disc mentioned above.


Using the Apple-dedicated 106 burner is OK, I have used these myself with no problem. The only difference in the Apple version is a tiny bit of code in the controller board that signals older Apple Macs that the drive is from Apple and allows it to boot from the burner. Apple got a lot of flak for such proprietary idiocy and switched to generic Pioneer and Panasonic drives after the DVR-107 of the following year. When used in anything but an old Apple Mac, the Apple-specific 106 behaves like any other 106. You would of course still need to swap the controller board with the one in your recorders original burner, to get the recorder-specific chip and connector.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Help. I opened the unit and it is a Pioneer 105-XA. Can I still swap the boards?


I found out too that as long as you use a hard drive with an image associated with that particular unit, you can use multiple hard drives. You cannot swap hard drives between units and keep the recordings.


If you have an 810 image you can put it on a new drive and put any size drive in the 810. It will do a Clear & Delete Everything, and associate it with the Unit.
 

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105-XA? That's a new one on me. I have never seen anything but the 106 variations in any of the other 2003 units (310, 510, 5100). But again I have never worked on an 810 so I'm not completely clear on its hybrid construction or history. If I had to guess, I'd say the 810 was designed and produced as a late 2002 model that overlapped the less expensive followup x10 models in 2003.


I've never seen a 105, so I can't tell you if it uses the same controller board size and internal connectors as a 106. Based on my experience with other sequential Pioneer burner models, I would guess no. Pioneer had an aggravating tendency to just slightly improve each years model from 104 thru 108, using the same mechanicals and housing, but totally reconfiguring the shape and size of each burners controller board. For example, you can't swap a 106 board into a 107, the 107 doesn't swap with the 108, etc. The final Pioneer burner employed in their own recorders was the 109, which was half the size of the previous burners, creating yet another incompitability.


The 105 is comparatively rare as a second hand generic burner, you may have a really hard time finding one. If you can lay hands on a cheap enough 106, its worth taking a look to see if the boards can be swapped. If not, you can always resell it (there's a thriving market for old Pioneer burners, between obsolete Apple Mac users and old Pioneer recorder users). If the 106 is compatible, your're golden, if not, you'll need to track down another complete 810 recorder to "harvest" from.


If you can afford to have one of your 810s go offline for awhile, you could play with it to gather more info. If the 105-XA uses a standard EIDE connector, try disconnecting it for a day, then reconnect it and power on the recorder. If it starts up normally, there's a strong chance Pioneer dropped the CPRM handshake requirement for the 810 burner since they weren't doing it for the TiVO HDD anyway. In that case, you should be able to install any random 106 replacement burner and not even have to bother with swapping the boards. BUT: if the recorder powers on complaining of "diSC Err", it means it does use the CPRM handshake chip and you'll need a burner that can exchange boards with the 105. It also means you'll need the service disc and service remote, even to re-activate the original burner. So don't try this experiment unless the machine involved is already problematic.
 

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Is this the Tivo unit? I was looking at the manual and kind of confused. If you use the component video output, can you still use the analog audio output? If so does it matter if from the video 1 or 2 output? The manual made sound like you had to use the digital audio output with the component video output? Is that true or are they just assuming you want the better digital audio with the component video?


Just checking since I will be helping a friend's son with a new tv and it has only composite video which will be used with a Tivo series 2 and he uses this Pioneer for a dvd player so I will have to use its component output.


Probably easie to just get a cheap dvd player with hdmi but his funds are kind of limited for now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Tomaskovic /forum/post/19612173


Is this the Tivo unit? I was looking at the manual and kind of confused. If you use the component video output, can you still use the analog audio output? If so does it matter if from the video 1 or 2 output? The manual made sound like you had to use the digital audio output with the component video output? Is that true or are they just assuming you want the better digital audio with the component video?


Just checking since I will be helping a friend's son with a new tv and it has only composite video which will be used with a Tivo series 2 and he uses this Pioneer for a dvd player so I will have to use its component output.


Probably easie to just get a cheap dvd player with hdmi but his funds are kind of limited for now.

He has a Pioneer 810H that he is just using as a DVD player?


Would he be willing to swap it for a Philips 3575 with HDMI out?


About your question. You could probably use any sound out matched with any video out. The only thing that might happen is the sound may be out of sync with the picture. The digital audio out on these machines was intended to go to a receiver for the surround sound aspects. That was before TV's had digital audio inputs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/19594023


105-XA? That's a new one on me. I have never seen anything but the 106 variations in any of the other 2003 units (310, 510, 5100). But again I have never worked on an 810 so I'm not completely clear on its hybrid construction or history. If I had to guess, I'd say the 810 was designed and produced as a late 2002 model that overlapped the less expensive followup x10 models in 2003.


I've never seen a 105, so I can't tell you if it uses the same controller board size and internal connectors as a 106. Based on my experience with other sequential Pioneer burner models, I would guess no. Pioneer had an aggravating tendency to just slightly improve each years model from 104 thru 108, using the same mechanicals and housing, but totally reconfiguring the shape and size of each burners controller board. For example, you can't swap a 106 board into a 107, the 107 doesn't swap with the 108, etc. The final Pioneer burner employed in their own recorders was the 109, which was half the size of the previous burners, creating yet another incompitability.


The 105 is comparatively rare as a second hand generic burner, you may have a really hard time finding one. If you can lay hands on a cheap enough 106, its worth taking a look to see if the boards can be swapped. If not, you can always resell it (there's a thriving market for old Pioneer burners, between obsolete Apple Mac users and old Pioneer recorder users). If the 106 is compatible, your're golden, if not, you'll need to track down another complete 810 recorder to "harvest" from.


If you can afford to have one of your 810s go offline for awhile, you could play with it to gather more info. If the 105-XA uses a standard EIDE connector, try disconnecting it for a day, then reconnect it and power on the recorder. If it starts up normally, there's a strong chance Pioneer dropped the CPRM handshake requirement for the 810 burner since they weren't doing it for the TiVO HDD anyway. In that case, you should be able to install any random 106 replacement burner and not even have to bother with swapping the boards. BUT: if the recorder powers on complaining of "diSC Err", it means it does use the CPRM handshake chip and you'll need a burner that can exchange boards with the 105. It also means you'll need the service disc and service remote, even to re-activate the original burner. So don't try this experiment unless the machine involved is already problematic.

Great news. I was able to get an A05 from e-bay. It works like a charm, but is a little noisy. I swapped the boards, since the A05 did not have a digital out and the 810 had a wire for one. It may have worked just fine, but I did not want to get an error. I am curious if the 106 has the same four connectors: two flat ribbons (1/2 inch wide white-blue tip) one going to the second circuit board in the front and the other going to a motor, the laser ribbon (1" wide) and then another motor ribbon (1/4") on the opposite side of the circuit board? If they do then they may work also. The A05 had slightly different "snap" connectors for the first two ribbons, but they were the same ribbons. It also looks like these drives were the first 4x speed drives. These are the full metal enclosure type. The new one even has the headphone jack and volume adjustment. So hopefully there are still thousands around.
 

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Glad to hear your repair was successful, Timtofly!



Regarding the AO5/105 and AO6/106 being controller board compatible, you might be in luck: according to at least this one testing website, Pioneer did not change the board design between 105 and 106 like they began doing between 106 and 107. Scroll down towards the end of each review, and you'll see an internal photo of each respective controller board. They appear physically identical with the same connectors and connector locations, so swapping your 105xa board into a 106 may work quite nicely:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=7057

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=8009


Note also TEAC and Memorex rebranded the 106 under their own names, you may be able to find them as additional spares (I installed the Memorex into my own 510 recorder):

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=8428
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/19720625


Glad to hear your repair was successful, Timtofly!



Regarding the AO5/105 and AO6/106 being controller board compatible, you might be in luck: according to at least this one testing website, Pioneer did not change the board design between 105 and 106 like they began doing between 106 and 107. Scroll down towards the end of each review, and you'll see an internal photo of each respective controller board. They appear physically identical with the same connectors and connector locations, so swapping your 105xa board into a 106 may work quite nicely:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=7057

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=8009


Note also TEAC and Memorex rebranded the 106 under their own names, you may be able to find them as additional spares (I installed the Memorex into my own 510 recorder):

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Revi...ArticleId=8428

Wow!!! Thank you for the info. I wish that I would have purchased that .99cent 106 from e-bay. Maybe if he has not sold it, he may give me another chance. I would probably give him $5 for it. Maybe I will go for that lot of Apples. They are factory refurbs. Now that I know I have a working one, I may try to dig deeper into the unit and look at the spindle. Even with slight use or no use, after 8-10 years does the rubber become unusable or can it be regenerated.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by timtofly /forum/post/19721626


Now that I know I have a working one, I may try to dig deeper into the unit and look at the spindle. Even with slight use or no use, after 8-10 years does the rubber become unusable or can it be regenerated.

Don't bother, Pioneer recorder burners up thru the 109 do not suffer from the worn/dirty spindle issue (that problem doesn't rear its head until they switched to Sony burners beginning with the 640 models in 2006). Your 810 burner likely died of laser failure, much more typical: they just fail after some years, regardless of actual total operating hours. Thats why it pays to stockpile as many spare burners as you can.
 
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