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Discussion Starter #1
I finally got around to doing some tests. The Pioneer DVR-*20 series is much better than the earlier DVR-*10 series. I'm wondering now if the Pioneer Rep just told me the bug was still there in the newer models out of ignorance.


I did 2 tests. One test had a bad spot where the tape picture started rolling. That spot caused a black out on the DVR-510H. It caused the same black out on the DVR-420H also, but the picture was really bad causing the picture to roll.


On another test, where the VHS tape was recording then paused, caused the DVR-510H to black out. I'm glad to report, NO BLACK OUT on the DVR-420H!


I also did VHS recording where I did several stops then record again. On the spots where one recording stopped and one started, there were NO BLACK OUTS!


I did recordings on a Sony VHS recorder with no flying erase heads, on standard VHS tapes. I also did recordings on a JVC S-VHS recorder with flying erase heads on S-VHS tapes.


It looks like the majority of black outs will be gone on VHS dubs done on the newer Pioneer recorders. However, there will still be black out on really bad time sync interruptions.


The Pioneer TBC has definitely been improved. Other's experiences will be welcomed here on this thread.


Have a good one.


*BTW, tests were conducted with VHS tape speeds of EP and SP.*
 

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Thanks for doing the tests and it's good to hear about those results. I've recorded many VHS tapes from home movies on my 520H and have not had any issues yet. The remaining home movies I want to transfer to DVD should be in pretty good shape so I hope to never encounter this issue.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by jemaerca
Thanks for doing the tests and it's good to hear about those results. I've recorded many VHS tapes from home movies on my 520H and have not had any issues yet. ..
Since you have considerable experience, I have a VHS->DVD question for you.


If I have 2 movies (off TV) on one VHS tape, each 2 hours long, should I record to the HD using the same taping speed, such that both movies will fit on one DVD, or will quality be improved if I record to the HD so that each film (from the VHS tape) requires a DVD?


BTW, my VCR is a Panasonic so I have 2-4-6 hour recording options. In the above, the 4 hour option, not 6 hour, was selected.


I figure since you have experience, you have fiddled around and have an easy answer for this.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Quote:
Originally posted by ngohit
If I have 2 movies (off TV) on one VHS tape, each 2 hours long, should I record to the HD using the same taping speed, such that both movies will fit on one DVD, or will quality be improved if I record to the HD so that each film (from the VHS tape) requires a DVD?


BTW, my VCR is a Panasonic so I have 2-4-6 hour recording options. In the above, the 4 hour option, not 6 hour, was selected.


I figure since you have experience, you have fiddled around and have an easy answer for this.
Since you used LP 4 hour VHS speed, the noise won't be as horrible as it would be on 6 hour EP VHS speed.


If you want the very best quality, I would record each movie to the HDD at SP 2 hour speed and use a custom setting that only enables Noise Reduction.


On the new recorders, I haven't tested the 3D Y/C adjustment, so you'll need to find what setting works best for you since you'll be using a composite signal from the VHS VCR. Previously on the DVR-*10 series, the best quality was adjusted all the way left. Any other setting produced purple bars on black backgrounds.


I would then do what editing you may want to do as divide the 2 movies into 2 titles and trim starting and ending garbage off. If you don't mind having a slight pause before erase edits, I would also get rid of commercials.


After all editing is done, I would High Speed dub each movie to it's own DVD.


This would allow an actual better picture quality than the original VHS because it will clean up time based problems and noise in the picture. The picture will have a more clean and smooth look to it. However, the lower resolution will still be there none the less.


If you would use any other speeds lower than SP 2 hour speed, they will start introducing visible macro-blocking artifacts. I did some 3 hour Nascar dubs for my friends and edited out commercials. The races were recorded on VHS in EP already, and then I had to record them at about 2 hour 40 minute speed so each race would fit onto one DVD. The lower DVD recorder speed added additional macro-blocking to the already noise riddled 3 hour EP recorded VHS tape. While not the greatest quality, splitting the races up onto more than 1 DVD would be more inconvenient than dealing with the additional artifacts. At least with a HDD, you have that option where on a none HDD recorder, you don't.


Hope that helps and have a good one.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Quote:
Originally posted by ngohit
Mike: That was really helpful. Thanks a lot. I'll be starting to backup those old tapes this week.
No problem, good luck with those dubs.


Have a good one.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by ngohit
Since you have considerable experience, I have a VHS->DVD question for you.


If I have 2 movies (off TV) on one VHS tape, each 2 hours long, should I record to the HD using the same taping speed, such that both movies will fit on one DVD, or will quality be improved if I record to the HD so that each film (from the VHS tape) requires a DVD?


BTW, my VCR is a Panasonic so I have 2-4-6 hour recording options. In the above, the 4 hour option, not 6 hour, was selected.


I figure since you have experience, you have fiddled around and have an easy answer for this.
Agree with Mike Up that you probably want to split the VHS tape to two 2-hour DVDs (SP quality). One nice feature that the Pio 520H has is it allows you to see what the PQ will be of the material you are recording before you record it. You might want to check that out to see if you can take jamming 4 hours of material in a DVD but I think you'll end up with 2 discs.
 

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I didn't test my 510 against my 420, since I was into volume dubbing last weekend, but I did get quite a number of blackouts while dubbing some really old (and in some cases, badly warped) VHS tapes using the 420H.

The blackouts occurred most commonly during...

lost vertical sync (due to tape wrinkle or warping)

bad tracking

blank sections between recordings (such as when the VHS recording was stopped, then restarted without cue-up)

pauses (in recordings made by VHS recorders without flying erase heads)


The blackouts only last for 3-4 frames each, which (if memory serves) is shorter than the blackouts that my 510 produced in similar situations.


The recordings producing the black outs were almost all recorded at EP, and were all made more than 10 years ago. I tried several VHS machines for playback (although the original VCRs that made the recordings are no longer available).

Best results (regardless of blackout situation) came from turning off all noise correctoin or stabilization on the playback VCR and turning on the VNR in the 420.


BTW my E80 (which was being used for dubbing material of similar age, but not the very same tapes) just recorded noise or flipped picture without blacking out when it encountered similar content.
 

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MikeUp


Can you explain something a bit further..if you do a high speed dub you can clean up noise???


Thanks,


E
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by doxtorRay
The recordings producing the black outs were almost all recorded at EP, and were all made more than 10 years ago. I tried several VHS machines for playback (although the original VCRs that made the recordings are no longer available).

Best results (regardless of blackout situation) came from turning off all noise correctoin or stabilization on the playback VCR and turning on the VNR in the 420.
What speed do you use when recording to the HD? VCR recorded at EP copied to DVR at EP equivalent? Or, would using SP (on the DVR) give better results?


Also, do you use Monster cables to get the best results VCR --> HD?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Quote:
Originally posted by doxtorRay
I didn't test my 510 against my 420, since I was into volume dubbing last weekend, but I did get quite a number of blackouts while dubbing some really old (and in some cases, badly warped) VHS tapes using the 420H.

The blackouts occurred most commonly during...

lost vertical sync (due to tape wrinkle or warping)

bad tracking

blank sections between recordings (such as when the VHS recording was stopped, then restarted without cue-up)

pauses (in recordings made by VHS recorders without flying erase heads)


The blackouts only last for 3-4 frames each, which (if memory serves) is shorter than the blackouts that my 510 produced in similar situations.


The recordings producing the black outs were almost all recorded at EP, and were all made more than 10 years ago. I tried several VHS machines for playback (although the original VCRs that made the recordings are no longer available).

Best results (regardless of blackout situation) came from turning off all noise correctoin or stabilization on the playback VCR and turning on the VNR in the 420.


BTW my E80 (which was being used for dubbing material of similar age, but not the very same tapes) just recorded noise or flipped picture without blacking out when it encountered similar content.
Interesting you were getting black outs on VHS recording pauses as I didn't with EP or SP speeds on either S-VHS or VHS. I did get some additional black outs on that bad tape, where sync was lost from glitches.


You definitely want to turn the stabilization circuit off, it caused a lot of problems for me. I'm assuming you mean the stabilization on a JVC deck.


If you didn't record the exact same tapes on both the E80 and the 420, you really can't compare as even my 510 recorded some badly distorted tapes from stretch and wrinkling with no black out problems.


Have a good one.
 

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I have both the 420 and the 510. The 420's TBC is an improvement in terms of less incidences of black-outs. It also has some nice features that the 510 does not.

MIKE: Where did you find the info on the 533 .. in particular the details about the selectable title menu background?
 

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While my previous post was just to report blackouts, I should probably have noted that the tape that induced the blackouts to appear was probably in such poor shape that the video would have been close to unwatchable anyway!!


zenith:

I would agree that the 420 seems to black out less often than the 510 (and I think that the blackouts are shorter). While not very scientific, I did notice that the 420 went ahead and recorded noisy spots that I would guess my 510 would have refused to record.


Mike:

I didn't really see any point in trying to dub the same tape in an E80, since the E80 just does not black out. The E80 just seems to record whatever would appear if the tape is played on a monitor.


I am not actually sure if the blackout is a bug or a feature. It seems that the Pioneers just won't let you record a very noisy video or video that lacks proper sync(s).


One tape I had seemed to be creased slightly at regular intervals. I assume this was from being tightly wound around the take-up spindle, which had a prominent notch where the tape was secured. Anyway, the "bumpy" tape made for quite a few blackouts. About every ten seconds, there would be a noisy bit (looking like tracking noise, but probably just due to poor contact with the heads). Each of these was followed five seconds later by a three-frame blackout.


I don't blame the 420 much. The tape was so bad that my JVC deck would revert to blue screen every once in a while during the playback (and, of course, I am not counting such episodes as 420 blackouts).


I wonder if the tape can be ironed out somehow...

I would also like to say that for tapes that are not basket cases, the 420 recorded superbly.


As for recording "speed" or mode, I am using SP, to preserve as much of the original quality as possible. I am using a separate DVD for each 90-minute to 2-hour segment, so conserving DVDs is not important.

However, if my wife wants me to copy one of her EP tapes, I usually use LP mode, since my wife is not picky about picture quality.
 
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