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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since I am new to Home Theatre this may seem obvious but:


Why do I not get any subwoofer response on music CDs when they are played through the DVD player that does on movies?


I know that music is only 2 channels but should Pro-Logic or any other setting get the sub working?


Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have already learned a ton from the helpful folks here.


Thanks.
 

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If you mean the 45A player, it, along with many universal players has an issue with the LFE/Sub channel. It is low relative to the main channels.


I am sure that this has been discussed here. I KNOW it has been discussed at the Home Theater Forum. If you search on the subject of "Low LFE" you will find much discussion.


Bottom, line...the bass is not missing, just low. You will need to compensate by increasing the sub/LFE level relative to the main channels.


And, I have had an ongoing e-mail exchange with Pioneer (since October). They do not feel its a problem....although I also do not think the understand the problem.


BGL
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for the info. I'll search on Low LFE.


Funny talking to their support. They really offered no response and I continued to try to prod them for info during the dicsussion.
 

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LFE levels don't have anything to do with playing CDs because CDs don't have an LFE channel.


In the absence of an LFE channel, the only bass that will go to the subwoofer is redirected bass below the crossover point in the receiver's active subwoofer crossover.


By definition, any speaker that is set to "high-pass" or "small" will play from the crossover point on up and the bass from those channels will be redirected to the powered subwoofer. Conversely, any speaker set to "full range" or "large" will play its own bass and no bass will be redirected to the subwoofer from those channels.


Thus, if you have your speakers set to "full-range" or "large", you should not expect to hear any bass from your subwoofer and you should expect your speakers and amplfiiers to work extra hard trying to play the bass.


With very, very few exceptions, multi-channel home theater systems should have all of the speakers set to "high-pass" or "small" and the bass from all channels with all kinds of recordings redirected to the subwoofer. That is the whole point of buying bi-amped system with a powered subwoofer. The crossover point should be selected based on the capabilities of the speakers in the system -- typically no lower tha 80 Hz.
 

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Quote:
LFE levels don't have anything to do with playing CDs because CDs don't have an LFE channel.
Well, that may depend how he has it hooked up.


If he is using the 6CH analog outputs, and BM is engaged (Speakers Small/Sub On), then he may see the problem; I have not tested specifically with CD's, but it exists with other media.


Connected through the stereo pair though (as I normally listed to CDs), would NOT be an issue; BM will be handled in his receiver.


The issue is that the combined sub/LFE channel is low. So, if he is using the 6CH analog outs, he may see low sub levels.


BGL
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Again thanks for the info.


Bass response is definitely great through DVDs.


I believe most speakers are set to "Large". I have the Klipsch Reference series and the Surrounds are very big in size. All calibration was done with the automated Pioneer method.


DVD is connected digitally and the sub uses the direct subwoofer line out with a Monster Subwoofer cable.


I'm not sure I want to change the "large" setting to "small" just for the Sub and music.


Looks like there isn't anything I can do. hmmm
 

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Quote:
DVD is connected digitally and the sub uses the direct subwoofer line out with a Monster Subwoofer cable.
Well, then ignore everything I have said!


If your only connection is via a digital link (you are not using ANY of the 45A analog outs), then the BM settings in the 45A mean nil.


Of course, you also will not be hearing the hi-rez stuff (DVD-A and SACD) in its best possible way, since the player will not send a SACD or DVD-A bitstream to your decoder. And actually, if it did, you your decoder would probably not know what to do with it.


Let me ask again: Are we talking about the Pioneer Elite 45A DVD player?


BGL
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by msh26


Bass response is definitely great through DVDs.
That's because the subwoofer is playing the bass with DVDs and not playing it with CDs. Subwoofers are designed to do one thing: play bass.

Quote:


I believe most speakers are set to "Large". I have the Klipsch Reference series and the Surrounds are very big in size.
Despite the names, the "Large" and "Small" settings have absolutely nothing to do with the physical size of the speakers. They have to do with whether or not the speakers can play deep bass as well as the powered subwoofer. Your speakers have 6 inch and 8 inch woofers. They cannot play bass as well as a powered subwoofer.

Quote:


I'm not sure I want to change the "large" setting to "small" just for the Sub and music.
It's not just for CDs. Redirecting bass from all of the speakers to the subwoofer will pay huge dividends on everything, including DVDs. In fact, THX requires that all speakers be set to SMALL with an 80 Hz crossover.

Quote:
Looks like there isn't anything I can do. hmmm
I don't understand. To get full value for the money you just spent on a powered subwoofer, set all the speakers to SMALL so that you are actually using the sub. If you don't want the subwoofer to play bass, then why not return it for a refund?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by BGLeduc
Well, then ignore everything I have said!


If your only connection is via a digital link (you are not using ANY of the 45A analog outs), then the BM settings in the 45A mean nil.


Of course, you also will not be hearing the hi-rez stuff (DVD-A and SACD) in its best possible way, since the player will not send a SACD or DVD-A bitstream to your decoder. And actually, if it did, you your decoder would probably not know what to do with it.


Let me ask again: Are we talking about the Pioneer Elite 45A DVD player?


BGL
I am talking about the Elite 45TX Receiver. The DVD is a Sony.


What is BM settings?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by BGLeduc
Well, then ignore everything I have said!


If your only connection is via a digital link (you are not using ANY of the 45A analog outs), then the BM settings in the 45A mean nil.


Of course, you also will not be hearing the hi-rez stuff (DVD-A and SACD) in its best possible way, since the player will not send a SACD or DVD-A bitstream to your decoder. And actually, if it did, you your decoder would probably not know what to do with it.


BGL
I thought SACD used the digital lines and not the analog ones?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by msh26
I thought SACD used the digital lines and not the analog ones?
No. DVD-A and SACD use analogue connections, unless you have something like a Pioneer 49tx and suitable DVD player.
 

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Sorry about the confusion....the 45A DVD player has generated a lot of discussion; I thought that was what you were talking about.


Good luck.


BGL
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by radarblip
Any constructive suggestions would be appreciated.
The issue of runnng your front speakers full-range is goes far beyond how low they can play. More important than that is the dynamic range benefits of bi-amping and getting the lowest octave of bass out of the main channels.


Understand that the recording philosophy is very different for CDs and Dolby Digital DVDs. Pop CDs are mixed with almost no dynamic range. Dolby Digital soundtracks are mixed with enormous dynamic range -- unprecedented in the history of recording. To properly play these recordings, you have to play them at a fairly high volume level to get the dialog up to natural levels. This, in turn, means that your main speakers and amplfier channels are going to be called upon to handle very very loud peaks. If the amplifiers clip on big 20 Hz bass notes, that clipping is going to be audible throughout the midrange and high frequencies. A pair of speakers and amplifier that works fine for CD might struggle with the dynamic range of Dolby Digital recordings.


By bi-amping, you neatly solve that problem. Because the amplfiier channels are not dealing with bass, they can play MUCH louder without strain. And, when the system clips, it's the subwoofer amp that is puking its guts out. Two benefits of that: the human ear is not very sensitive to low frequency distortion and, more importantly, there are no midrange/treble distortion products reaching your main speakers.


IMO, there are two good home theater configurations. The first is five large full-range speakers with about 200 watts per channel and a powered sub used exclusively for LFE channel. Obviously this system is expensive and somewhat difficult to place in the room.


The second good option is five "high-pass" speakers playing above 80 Hz and all bass redirected to a robust powered subwoofer. This system is much less expensive, much easier to place in the room (because the center and surround speakers don't have to be as physically large) and requires about half the amplifier power.


Mixed systems (with some speakers operating full-range and some high-pass) have some serious problems. What tends to happen is that the surround channels actually have more solid bass (because of the subwoofer) than the front channels (no subwoofer). So surround sound pans start to do weird things because of that inconsistency.
 
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