[nhey]

Just saw this set on display at Tweeter next to latest 65" diamond series Mitsubishi.


The Pioneer Elite was clearly better. Watched HDNET and also 4:3 material on both. In my opinion, no comparison. Even "full" mode with the Pioneer with 4:3 material much to my surprise showed no evidence I could see of a "stretch" effect. Amazing.

 

[Kipp Jones]

The floor models are not calibrated. Out of the box Mits almost always look bad. The sets ship from the factory with the contrast turned all the way up. After proper calibration of both sets, the Mits will look better. The Pioneer does have a better line doubler but that is a non issue when it comes to hd. Check out a recent post here about the tweaking of a 65907 and all the evidence is there.

 

[Kipp Jones]

Here is the link:


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...threadid=89350

 

[Shawn O]

I wonder what the list for the 720 is in Canada?The 710 sold for around 10K.Way to rich for my blood.

 

[J.Mike Ferrara]

Kipp,

My first rear projection set was the (then) revolutionary 40" Pioneer, purchased back in '86. It's still running and has a decent picture!


I owned 3 different Pioneer LD players, all top of the line. My first A/V receiver was Pioneer. I guess you could say I was a Pioneer customer. But when I did a comparison on RP HDTV a few years ago, the Mitsubishi beat the Pioneer on technology, features, and price. It still does today.


There is a bullheaded bias on the AVS towards the Pioneer Elites as the only solution for RP HDTV. It's time we set folks straight!

 

[BTDT]

My advice when comparing sets is to find a high-quality A/V store and see the choices -- all imaculately tuned -- side by side. The Mits are certainly a beautiful choice, although they fall short on the line doubler, as previously noted on this forum. In terms of price and other features they compare very favorably to the Pioneer and Elite lines.


But here's the problem: Joe Blow customer with a wad of cash walks into typical showroom. Pioneer or Elite is sitting next to Mits. Staff at store has no clue how to properly set up anything. Pioneers are better out of the box, thus looks head and shoulders better than Mits. Joe Blow buys Pioneer.


The saving grace to Mitsubishi is that the Pioneers, and certainly the Elites, are not available as many places as are the Mits.


The above is irritating to me, as I don't have the luxury of always going over to my preferred A/V vendor. Thus I am forced to compare, say, a Sony XBR2 to a Mits Platinum sitting in a Frys. Sonys appears to also be better tuned out of the box; thus blow away the Mits. This causes even me to have misgivings about the Mits.


The morale of the story here is that the Elite bias is due to both intial and long-term impressions of these sets over time. Mits may be wonderful, but take a more-skilled buyer to get them there.

 

[joealtus]

I just bought the 720 from a store that had the Mitsubishi, the Elites, the XBR2 and the Toshiba HX. It's a high-end store that has their sets displayed well and fed good signals (except their ordinary directv signal). The Elite looked far better than any of them. I plugged in my portable DVD to the svideo jacks in both of them to view a movie I was familiar with and definitely found the Elite more pleasing. I found the HX to be the worst looking.


My previous unit was a 53" Sony XBR bought in 1997.


Of course, the 720 was exceptionally expensive, so I would not rate it the best value.

 

[pnichols]

I've had an Elite 610 for 2 years and have played with just about every adjustable parameter on both the user menus and inside the service menu.


Since the Elite's cost more than the Mit's, here's some stuff you can tweak on an Elite that MAY not be possible on the Mit's.........ultimately being the cause of the price difference. More adjustment capability translates into better optimization of picture if you know what you are doing with the adjustments. Adjustment/customization flexibility costs money:


1. Two level's of SVM plus SVM OFF on the user menu


2. Two level's of 3:2 pull-down plus 3:2 pull-down OFF on the user menu


3. -128 to +127 adjustment range of most parameters in the service menu


4. Not only Sharpness adjustment (as all sets have), but -128 to +127 range of adjustment for "Detail" in the service menu


5. Customization of all picture parameters by FREQUENCY of input type and also by PHYSICAL input in the service menu


6. Built-in component/S-Video/composite hot-prority switching within each phsical input so each input can be used for MULTIPLE sources simultaneously


7. True RGB compliant input


8. 72-point convergence in either the user menu or service menu


9. 5 levels of screen luminance temperature via the user menu


10. 3 levels of screen contrast auto-settings


11. 0.52mm lenticular screen pitch


12. Multi-step adjustment of three filter algorithms in the service menu


13. Y/C filter with 5 levels via the user menu.


14. NR filter with 5 levels via the user menu.


15. Higher HDTV horizontal line resolution by actual test than Mits (But neither able to reach the full 1080i standard - since both the Elite and Mit's use only 7" CRT's.)


I don't know about the new high-end Mit's models, but I carefully compared the high-end Mit's 2 years ago and they couldn't hold a candle in customization flexibility to the Elite's.


Flexibility of course costs money, but for those of you willingly to tweak or find a tech who knows what he is doing, you can tune up an Elite above what you can tune up a Mit's to for all input sources.

 

[JCHanifan]

Well, I resent the remark that us salesmen do not know how to set up these tvs. We all know that the contrast is way jacked up and look horrible out of the box. The policy I set in my store is to let the TV play for several hours to "break in". This probably doesn't do much, but it makes me feel good! I or one of my other salesmen painstakingly adjusts the tv using Video Essentials or AVIA spending at least an hour. Now we also converge the tvs as well (for RPTV). This takes a lot longer on the Elites because they have 72 pt convergence. We salesmen do know this and we want to show you the payers of our paychecks the best possible picture short of an ISF.

J

 

[joealtus]

Good for you JCHanifan. I wish more salesman cared about making proper adjustments.

 

[Will]

Quote:

The Pioneer does have a better line doubler but that is a non issue when it comes to hd.

The overwhelming majority of what is being broadcast today, is NOT hd

unfortunately.
Quote:

I don't know about the new high-end Mit's models, but I carefully compared the high-end Mit's 2 years ago and they couldn't hold a candle in customization flexibility to the Elite's. Flexibility of course costs money, but for those of you willingly to tweak or find a tech who knows what he is doing, you can tune up an Elite above what you can tune up a Mit's to.

I agree.

 

[J.Mike Ferrara]

Phil,

Thanks for your comprehensive listing, but most of your listings are features. I'm talking about very fine adjustments that can make a good picture reference quality.


Here's a shot of service menu items via the Kwik-Fix solution that allow one to dial out the last little bit of ringing/EE in a Mits:
http://jmikef.com/images/kf_edges.JPG


There is nothing even remotely available to make such adjustments on the Elite, and believe me, any way to control the ringing on the Pioneers would be most welcome.


The point is this. Mits owners now have access to hidden service menu items. We are in tweaker's heaven

 

[pnichols]

Mike,


On Elites in the service menu, turn Sharpness to -127, and then start INCREASING "Detail" to positive settings higher than what they come from the factory. I don't use AVIA, but I estimate ringing by looking at the white fringes appearing along black vertical edges on a medium grey background.


I've noticed that increasing Detail eliminates these few remaining fringes left after setting Sharpness to -127. With Sharpness set to -127 I find the picture looks too soft, but by increasing Detail this softness is removed from the image WITHOUT the ringing appearing. So I actually set Detail to high positive values and set Sharpness considerally higher than -127 to both eliminate ringing AND keep the image looking crisp and 3D-like. I'm inquiring into what "Detail" on the Elites is doing to the analog video channel, but to date have not received an answer. The service manual says "leave Detail at factory settings"............ yeah, right. Detail even adds crispness to my VHS material while not negatively impacting my filmlike image quality I'm getting (unbelieveably) with VHS and Super-VHS material. I have an idea that the Detail setting may have something to do with peaking analog video channel response separately for luminance and chrominance something like the Sage/Faroudja FLI2220 video enhancer chip may be doing - but this is just a guess on my part.


One advantage the Mits may have over the Elites is adjustment of the decoder. However, I'm not convinced this is true. I'm still looking for unpublished codes for the Elite that may allow removing the small amount of red push in the Elites. I'm wondering if that whole "2nd Factory" section of the service menu (that the service manual says isn't used) isn't where this is done if you know how to access it.


The adjustments to the filter algorithms I discovered is an unpublished set of button pushes on the remote that the service manual makes no mention of.


Adjustment of contrast, black level, color saturation, sharpness, detail, red & blue drive and cut, tint, etc., using a 256 point range certainly constitutes very fine adjustments plenty adequate to tune in superb image quality. The filter algorithms appear to have an adjustment range of only 0 to 64, however.


I actually customize and store individual 480i S-Video/Composite, 480i component, 480p component, and 1080i component settings in my Elite so I get "identical" picture quality (not counting resolution and line doubling) regardless of input source and cabling.


I have been able to throttle down the "white crush" adequately with careful setting of contrast and black level - again customized by input source and cabling as above.


Do the new Mits have the 0.52mm pitch screen yet and red/blue chrominance corrected lenses for the red and blue guns as on the Elites? This stuff enhances image quality also.


How about 72-point convergence on all screen modes being available on the new Mit's? I tweak convergence about once a week on all picture modes (takes about 15 minutes, total) to get superb image definition and color purity right to the screen edges.


I welcome feedback from anyone one what they find when adjusting the Detail parameter on Elite RPTV's.

 

[Kipp Jones]



Originally posted by Will



The overwhelming majority of what is being broadcast today, is NOT hd

unfortunately.


I only watch digital broadcasts and hd. So I choose to watch hd. There is enough hd on today to fill up my whole day. Your above statement is obvious to all of us, but sd is slowly disappearing and hd is becoming more prevalent.

 

[Kipp Jones]

Quote:

Originally posted by pnichols I've had an Elite 610 for 2 years and have played with just about every adjustable parameter on both the user menus and inside the service menu. Since the Elite's cost more than the Mit's, here's some stuff you can tweak on an Elite that MAY not be possible on the Mit's.........ultimately being the cause of the price difference. More adjustment capability translates into better optimization of picture if you know what you are doing with the adjustments. Adjustment/customization flexibility costs money: 1. Two level's of SVM plus SVM OFF on the user menu 2. Two level's of 3:2 pull-down plus 3:2 pull-down OFF on the user menu 3. -128 to +127 adjustment range of most parameters in the service menu 4. Not only Sharpness adjustment (as all sets have), but -128 to +127 range of adjustment for "Detail" in the service menu 5. Customization of all picture parameters by FREQUENCY of input type and also by PHYSICAL input in the service menu 6. Built-in component/S-Video/composite hot-prority switching within each phsical input so each input can be used for MULTIPLE sources simultaneously 7. True RGB compliant input 8. 72-point convergence in either the user menu or service menu 9. 5 levels of screen luminance temperature via the user menu 10. 3 levels of screen contrast auto-settings 11. 0.52mm lenticular screen pitch 12. Multi-step adjustment of three filter algorithms in the service menu 13. Y/C filter with 5 levels via the user menu. 14. NR filter with 5 levels via the user menu. 15. Higher HDTV horizontal line resolution by actual test than Mits (But neither able to reach the full 1080i standard - since both the Elite and Mit's use only 7" CRT's.) I don't know about the new high-end Mit's models, but I carefully compared the high-end Mit's 2 years ago and they couldn't hold a candle in customization flexibility to the Elite's. Flexibility of course costs money, but for those of you willingly to tweak or find a tech who knows what he is doing, you can tune up an Elite above what you can tune up a Mit's to for all input sources.

If you really want to compare sets, the Mits ws73907 uses 9" guns NO Elite can match that. Your #15 is wrong. The 9" guns have a higher resolution. The 2001 and 2002 Mits sets not only hold a candle but use a flame thrower to SMOKE the Elites. The only thing the Elites have on the Mits is the line doubler, which is irrelevant in many cases.

 

[J.Mike Ferrara]

Phil,

If you refer to the picture of the Kwik-Fix interface, you will see a CHROMA tab. This allows access to color decoder service menu items. The result: NO RED PUSH!


I'll grant you this: any HD RP set has the potential to produce a great picture, but you must have access to the full service menu. Only Mits owners have this access at this time. And again, I repeat: The Mits, fully tweaked & calibrated, produces a picture that no other HD RP set can match.


End of discussion.

 

[Will]

On a related note, has anyone who has looked at BOTH a

year 2002 Pioneer non-Elite and a 2002 Pioneer Elite decided to

get a Pioneer Elite instead of a Pioneer non-Elite? The Elites probably

have a better picture, and they have a shiney piano black cabinet

the non-Elites lack, but they unfortunately also cost a lot more.

 

[pnichols]

Mike,


You obvisouly know about what fully and competently adjusted Mits sets are capable of.


Who's Elite that has been fullly and competently adjusted have you seen that gives you the opinion that (the Mits) "produces a picture that no other HD RP set can match"?


Have you seen the $10K+ 58" Runco 16X9 RPTV or $30K 58" 16X9 RPTV that Faroudja offers with magnetically focused CRT's (instead of the cheaper electrostatically focused CRT's like Elite and Mits use)? These RPTV's are of course in another league and we can't pretend to compare the Mits or Elite to them.


Nobody has responded to my list item by item showing how well Mits can match the Elite's. My item 15 is a valid apples-to-apples comparsion because it's referring to the 64" on-down Mits to Elite line ups where the CRT sizes are equal. By the way, just because someone has 9" CRT's doesn't mean their horizontal resolution is superior to 7" CRT horizontal resolution. There are good CRT designs and compromized CRT designs - and good circuits feeding the CRT's and cheaply designed circuits feeding CRT's. A superior 7" CRT/circuit combination can match a so-so 9" CRT/circuit design.


When I did my shopping I didn't even consider the 73" Mit's because I figured it sold too cheaply to really be "any good". Of course on the showroom floor the 73" Mit's looked to me way worse than either the 64" Mit's or 64" Elite's.


The Elite's don't cost more only because of their doubler or black cabinet or perceived reputation. Other than no (apparently - yet) access to their decoder, the Elites have the better circuits to justify the extra $. As you know the as-shipped red push on the Mit's is considerably worse than that on the Elites anyway, so it's good that the Mit's decoder is accessible.

 

[Kipp Jones]

Quote:

Originally posted by pnichols Mike, You obvisouly know about what fully and competently adjusted Mits sets are capable of. Who's Elite that has been fullly and competently adjusted have you seen that gives you the opinion that (the Mits) "produces a picture that no other HD RP set can match"? Have you seen the $10K+ 58" Runco 16X9 RPTV or $30K 58" 16X9 RPTV that Faroudja offers with magnetically focused CRT's (instead of the cheaper electrostatically focused CRT's like Elite and Mits use)? These RPTV's are of course in another league and we can't pretend to compare the Mits or Elite to them. Nobody has responded to my list item by item showing how well Mits can match the Elite's. My item 15 is a valid apples-to-apples comparsion because it's referring to the 64" on-down Mits to Elite line ups where the CRT sizes are equal. By the way, just because someone has 9" CRT's doesn't mean their horizontal resolution is superior to 7" CRT horizontal resolution. There are good CRT designs and compromized CRT designs - and good circuits feeding the CRT's and cheaply designed circuits feeding CRT's. A superior 7" CRT/circuit combination can match a so-so 9" CRT/circuit design. When I did my shopping I didn't even consider the 73" Mit's because I figured it sold too cheaply to really be "any good". Of course on the showroom floor the 73" Mit's looked to me way worse than either the 64" Mit's or 64" Elite's. The Elite's don't cost more only because of their doubler or black cabinet or perceived reputation. Other than no (apparently - yet) access to their decoder, the Elites have the better circuits to justify the extra $. As you know the as-shipped red push on the Mit's is considerably worse than that on the Elites anyway, so it's good that the Mit's decoder is accessible.

Phil,

real quick, 1-15 Mits either meets or exceeds all with equivalent or comparable features. The only exception is Mits has a 64 point convergence vs the Pioneer's 72.


The ws73907 being cheap at $10000 msrp? Huh?


If you compare showroom sets on picture quality, you are not doing a realistic comparison.


By the way, this thread is about the 720 Elite that is why your #15 is wrong.


Listen to Mr. Ferrara he knows what he is talking about and has put the proof on the screen. What more can you ask for??? Good job Mr. Ferrara!!!

 

[pnichols]

kippjones,


The Elite (former) 710 and (new) 720 are 64" (diagonal) 16X9 RPTV's.


The 73" Mits was no where near $10K (MSRP) when I looked at it. It was about the same as the 64" Elite 710 ($8300 MRSP), and no way could the 73" of HDTV image thrown up by the Mit's have been a well designed image (at that time - don't know about the recent 73" Mits) compared to $8300 Elite 710's 64" image. It appeared to me at the time that Mits merely had the 73" on the market for "wow" factor to show they could do it - albeit not with image quality befitting a well-done 73" 16X9 presentation.


Mike knows a lot about the Mits. Mit's is the volume leader and uses extensive mass production manufacturing lines. Mits has a lot of customers squeezing every last bit of performance out of their sets possible - so you see a lot of tweak talk about them on the NET.


Elite tweakers are far more rare. The Elites sell at a lot smaller volume and were, when I bought my set, hand assembled in the US (CA).


I don't think the Mit's match all on my list - but in all fairness I need to check Mit's specs and user manuals again. For instance, can SVM be turned OFF from the remote on the Mit's- not that I know of?!


Many people enjoy owning their Mits RPTV's, and at their price point the value is high and the enjoyment is well justified.


When I bought the Elite, I was looking for adjustment flexibility and I'm willing to bet that even today, using the user menu's and not considering the service menu's, you have more adjustment levels on more parameters on the Elite than on the Mit's.


I need to refresh myself however by downloading a user manual on the latest Mits high-end models to see. Careful study and reading between the lines of a user manual can reveal a lot of good engineering or compromise engineering.


Enyoy your set!