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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Elite 520,620 and 720 show various resolutions in the Product literature.

520= 1150 lines

620= 1200 lines

720- 1400 lines


So if the Electronics are all the same, why would the larger sets have more resolution?


It would seem they should all have the same maximum resoltion.


Tom

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know the actual resolution of all 3 is approx. 1200 lines in 1080i due to the use of 7" tubes, I still always wondered why Pioneer states the 3 different resolutions.



Tom
 

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Simple explanation. MARKETING! Not engineering. Higher price must mean higher resolution? All 7" crt's are limited by design and physical limitations of dot-pitch, phosphor size, etc. Let your eyes be the judge of true resolution quality not the hype of brochures or so called "technical spec's" by many manufacturers. Very similiar in some ways to "power spec's" of amplifiers, why sometimes a 50 watt amp plays louder than the 100 watt amp (spl).
 

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gmanhdtv - your point has plenty of merit, but, to avoid confusing the poster, projection CRT tubes don't have dot pitch or phosphor size - you may be thinking of direct view CRT tubes which do. The corresponding projection CRT parameter to "dot pitch" is something called beam spot size. It is quite possible to have a 7" CRT generate a beam spot tight enough to fully resolve HD - at an unusably low light output, unfortunately.


Tom, if resolution is a concern for you, you're my kinda guy. In addition to lenticulation which Larry pointed out, there are a boatload of other factors governing max resolution. And another boatload of factors besides max resolution many of which are much more important to the picture quality and your enjoyment. Whatever you decide on, be sure to see an example of one professionally calibrated before you buy, if possible. At the very least, plan on having yours calibrated at the time of purchase.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the response,


I have seen and will have delivered a 720. I'm quite happy with the bang for the buck and the TV. It fits my situation nicely. I have gotten a great price and the format Pioneer uses to bring this type of television into the home I love.


I really am curious about the stated resolution, a couple of years back I read an explanation somewhere, technically I just would like a explanation, Pioneer customer probably will not provide it. How the heck can a larger version of what "I" feel is the same guts deliver more resolution? What "type" of resolution are they measuring. I think it may be the actual resolution available through the "Screen". Sounds crazy but that's what I remember...


Tom
 

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The tubes and lenses are different P/Ns for each of the units, I think. That's the way it was/is for the x10 series.

The lenticular screen has a 0.5mm pitch, which would translate to >2200 ribs on the 53" version. I don't think that's it.

Video amp circuitry will limit, and is probably identical in all three sets. If they quote different specs, I'm assuming the optics are limiting.


I see about 1100x600 or so on my Elite 510, before the lines begin to overlap. I haven't done any mechanical or optical focusing, though.


Todd
 

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I shoped around for months, researched, read mags and picked the 720 and I love it!


I believe the varying resolutions are due to its builtin line doubler which converts typical broadcast signal to dvd quality signal when viewing signal from componet input i.e cable box or sat.
 

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All three models of the Pioneer Elite (the 520, 620, and 720) use exactly the same electronics and the same lens systems. The volume of the boxes increases with increases in screen size. You are buying a bigger box and a bigger screen, that's it, as you go up in size. The brightness decreases as the screen size increases, no surprise. Years ago someone from Pioneer explained the horizontal resolution spec it quotes which does increase as screen width expands. If you project two lines just touching so it appears to be one line twice as wide and then take the projector further away from the screen, the two lines will now have some space between them. That's why with a large screen one employees doublers and scalers to generate more lines so you do not see spaces between the lines at the chosen viewing distance. 480i just doesn't have enough lines for a 50 inch screen diagonal. Obviously with true HD and not processed 480i you get more detail. Resolution makes a difference with HD. You get enough resolution for 720p or 1080i with any of the Pioneer Elite models. Obviously you get enough for scaled 480i. In fact given the garbage feeds for over the air and cable and sat 480i feeds, you may have too much resolution! The spec published by Pioneer while valid for the method by which it is calculated (sorry I just don't remember) is meaningless as a parameter in selecting a 720 over a 620 over a 520. For a 720p or 1080i chassis, the resolution for all models exceeds the need.
 

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Quote:
If you project two lines just touching so it appears to be one line twice as wide and then take the projector further away from the screen, the two lines will now have some space between them.
That's only true if the focus has NOT been optimized for a given screen size.
Quote:
You get enough resolution for 720p or 1080i with any of the Pioneer Elite models.
Define "enough." Sure, the picture is fantastic, but I've seen better from HD1 DLPs (in terms of resolution and clarity, that is). Even though the sets can display 1080i, doesn't mean they can fully resolve it. And, they can't.
Quote:
What test patterns are you using to read that result?
I had my PC hooked up to the set for a bit, and made up some simple black/white alternating line test patterns with Paint. Under normal viewing, I can see about 10-15% space between the scan lines at 480p. I have to have my face to the screen, though. From 6 feet back (my closest viewing position), I don't notice them.


I'm not in any way disappointed with my 510. Well, except maybe that I don't get a bright 8ft wide screen from it. But, hey, I've neither the room, nor the finances for that.:)


Todd
 

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The HD1 based DLPs cannot resolve 1080i. The NR of the the chip is 720p. All HD1 machines down convert 1080i to 720p. The Pioneer Elites display 1080i. No matter how you focus a machine, you still have only so many lines. Say you have 540 lines. If your screen is 10 ft high you will see spaces between the lines from a small distance away. If your screen is 18 inches tall, you won't see spaces between the lines. Focus them both to the nth degree. Big space, limited number of lines, you see spaces.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mark,


I really am interested how these figures were calculated, I wonder if Pioneer could tell me. I have e-mailed them, waiting for a responce. Your input makes sense, in todays "High Resolution" world you would think Pioneer could explain in detail. What format would display 1150,1200 or 1400 lines of resolution?


Tom
 

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It seems obvious that manufacturers use different formulas to calculate horizontal resolution. The fundamentals of calculating a simple horizontal resolution number is the vertical resolution times the picture aspect ratio. Doing so by no means delivers us the actual final resolution due to factors listed by others in the post. Limitations such as the lenticular, video amplifier, etc. all play a part. Also, you have other aspects such as sync signals and other TV data(i.e. closed captioning), all of which use up some of the signal. You even have to deal with issues such as stable resolution of interlaced signals, which is half its original resolution at any given field, two fields per frame.


Using the most basic method of calculating H resolution, it is difficult to discern how Pioneer may have come up with their resolution numbers listed in a previous post. Maybe they actually did attempt to calculate multiple variables to arrive at their number. But, in America, bigger is better and horizontal resolution has always been a number that manufacturers have used to distort truth in marketing. It is not likely that they will ever tell how they arrived at the numbers. And, quite frankly, while it may be a great subject of discussion on this forum, the common consumer probably doesn't care.


It is all about marketing a product, and truth can hardly be found in it. In the end, resolution is never about just one number and is a much more complex issue than most could fathom.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
4cinema,


I agree with all of your points, but that just makes me want to know even more. I'm not going to take delivery of, or return because of the spec, but if there is some good reason for the "increased" resolution it could be important to know only if the additional resolution could benefit the end user, me. I'm 99% it does not, however would like the real explanation.

Waiting for a responce from Pioneer.


Tom
 

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Quote:
The Pioneer Elites display 1080i.
Display- yes. Resolve- no. I OWN this set. I'm fully aware of its limitations. The fact is- you cannot put a 1920x1080 test pattern on the screen, and expect to see EACH AND EVERY pixel displayed. It is simply not possible with 7" CRTs. The beam spot is too large for the given tube size (never mind the other limitations). It cannot be focused tightly enough.
Quote:
If your screen is 18 inches tall, you won't see spaces between the lines. Focus them both to the nth degree.
That depends. Speaking of these tubes, that is true (because of the beam spot limitation mentioned above). Use an optical grade lens with an HD1 DLP chip (or WXGA LCD, or SXGA LCOS for that matter) and then you are wrong. You would be able to see each and every pixel at 18", provided you look closely enough. Heck, you can see the individual mirrors under a microscope!


TS45- it ought to come down to this- how big do you want the picture to be? If you can only get 53" to fit nicely in the room, get that. If you can get the larger 64", and are willing to throw down the extra $2000 for it, go for that.


It will be interesting to hear what Pioneer has to say. Interestingly, those are the same EXACT numbers as the x10 series. Somewhat dubious, since the x20 series is supposed to have an improved CRT and lens system.


Todd


P.S. In this price range, have you considered front projection?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Todd,

I have considered front projection, just can't control the ambient light enough. We have installed special shades, doors etc... I do not mind an RPTV and will go with the larger 64" size. Do you have any suggestions as far as front projection? CRT / DLP?


Tom
 
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