[PhilT3]

I saw another thread about this topic...


However, I read through the entire thread... and surprise... it got off topic!


Does anyone truly know/understand the real differences between the SC-05 and the VSX-94TXH?


Looking at the comparison on Pioneers website, they seem practically identical. And the same MSRP. Is the SC-05 just the newer model?


What gives?

 

[mattg]

Don't know all the particulars, but do know that the SC-05 and -07 use Class D amps while the 94 does not. m

 

[Cattledog]

3 main differences: "Ice" "PQLS" & "Wolfson"

 

[Big Lag]

Cattledog, please elaborate on those differences. What do the acronyms stand for? What are the features and what do they offer? Which receiver has them, the SC-05 or the TXH?

 

[kenshin-dono]

i was about to make a thread asking this since im deciding between the sc-05, yamaha RX-V1900, and denon AVR3808... then when reading through the forums i noticed people mentioning the 94THX when comparing them to the yamahas and denon one too... i cant really tell the difference, interestingly enough the 94 isn't even listed on pioneers site, you have to do a manual search it isn't in the elite category at all


can anyone really clarify what the diff is?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...TXH.Kuro?tab=B

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...-05.Kuro?tab=B

 

[MichaelJHuman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lag /forum/post/15431479


Cattledog, please elaborate on those differences. What do the acronyms stand for? What are the features and what do they offer? Which receiver has them, the SC-05 or the TXH?

Not to put words into his mouth, I can tell you what he means, nonetheless.


ICE refers to the class D amplifier technology used in the SC line. Class D has the advantage of being more efficient. This tends to yield more power, and less weight. Read the SC-07 (I think it is) review over at Audioholics. Gene seems a bit down down Pioneer's bench tests, but that seems to be a complex issue, because benchtests seem to bring out the worst in class D based amps, and are not necessarily representative of real world audio. You be the judge.


PLQS is supposed to reduce jitter. There's not a lot of concrete data on whether it does, but the potential is there. If you don't know what jitter is, you are almost better off not knowing. It's so often debated, yet little concrete proof exists for whether it's a problem, especially over HDMI. Also, jitter increases with HDMI cable length near as I can tell. Short cables may have no issues. My feeling is to not worry about it, but that's just me.


Wolfsen is a brand of DAC. People debate the merits of DACs all the time, but can never offer any concrete listening tests to back it up. Really, DACs all have amazing Signal to Noise ratios, flat response curves, etc. Maybe there are subtle differences, I would not know.


Note that your signal goes through many electronic components. From the DAC you have the primary op amps after the DACs, various gain stages, more op amps for buffering the audio, volume control chips, and of course the amp circuits themselves - blah blah blah. For maximum flexibility, you want a 192khz / 24 bit DAC, but it seems only the cheapest receivers lack those these days!

 

[graphicguy]

All the above is true.


The 94 TXH preceded the SC series. The SC series is the current top of the Elite line....made up of the SC 05, SC 07, and the SC 09. Does that make it better or worse? Don't know. There have been a few people who've moved from the 94 to the SC.


There's a wealth of information and comparisons from folks that have come from all sorts of AVRs to the SC here....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1057599


There's also a lack of understanding about how Pioneer implemented the ICEamps as spec'd from Bang & Olufsen. The same tech is used in some nice amps, from quite a few companies. You'll see some threads peppered with some of them from the likes of D-Sonic and Wyred4sound.


As was pointed out, the advantages of Class D ICEamps, specifically as developed in conjunction with B&O, are pretty compelling. Efficiency (generally, Class D is 2x+ more efficient than the more common AB amps used in the 94 and other AVR manufacturers) . Lack of generated heat. Lots of power, over a broad range of resistance loads. Among many others.


Here's a review by Dave Vaughn at UltimateAV. He's had quite a bit of experience with Pioneer's SC (he also used/reviewed the SC 09)...

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avrecei...5_av_receiver/


Regarding DACs, PQLS (jitter control) and other acronyms, it's up to you how important those things are. Suffice to say, Pioneer uses high quality DACs in the SC and the 94.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

It's interesting how different of a benchmark there is between the Audioholics SC-07 review and the SC-05 review shown above. There's possibly a difference in testing there. Gene mentions that some testers are not doing a full bandwidth sweep. Looking at Ultilhz.ate's review, they test into 4 ohms, but say they test at 1 khz.


It's worth reading both reviews just to get a disenting opinion, but it's hard to know which test is most indicative of real world performance - at least it's hard for me to know

 

[graphicguy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16476827


It's interesting how different of a benchmark there is between the Audioholics SC-07 review and the SC-05 review shown above. There's possibly a difference in testing there. Gene mentions that some testers are not doing a full bandwidth sweep. Looking at Ultilhz.ate's review, they test into 4 ohms, but say they test at 1 khz.


It's worth reading both reviews just to get a disenting opinion, but it's hard to know which test is most indicative of real world performance - at least it's hard for me to know

Michael....good point! Just my personal opinion (owning an SC), those who use Class D, and specifically the B&O ICEamp modules, seem to find 4 Ohm loads pose no problems for them. I lend a little more credence to David Vaughn's tests and reviews because he had both the SC 05 and the SC 09 (which he understandably found lots of similarities), and is very familiar with the series.


I've got a mix of 4 Ohm-6 Ohm nominal speakers in my HT set up. Some other users are driving all 4 Ohm set ups with good results using the SC series.


IMHO, while there could be some debate over the reviews and testing procedures, the end results do seem to point to where most agree that the ICEmodules perform well in the "real world".


I think what frustrates some is that neither B&O, nor those who are licensing their Class D technology, are willing to give an in-depth look at how they implemented it. That's understandable given that they consider it proprietary to their products.


If you want to note the differences between the Elite 94 TXH and the SC (again, the 05 and 07 are practically the same save for a couple of features, most notably the extra HDMI "out" on the SC 07), the differences in the amp sections would be the biggest.

 

[Foxbat121]

If you're a SACD fan, 94 offers DSD direct mode without convert into PCM while 05 doesn't have it. PQLS on SC-05 is for 2-channel stereo only. Multi-channel version of PQLS just started to show up in latest Pio BD players but none on receiver yet.


Both are decent receivers and both can be had for cheap now. 94 has been discountinued for quite a while now. And I saw BB just clearanced its stock of SC-05. So, if you're interested in either of them, grab which ever you can get.

 

[WiWavelength]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 /forum/post/16478358


PQLS on SC-05 is for 2-channel stereo only. Multi-channel version of PQLS just started to show up in latest Pio BD players but none on receiver yet.

Has Pioneer announced replacement models for the 05 & 07 yet?


AJ

 

[MichaelJHuman]

I thought they came out in the last six months? Also, did Pioneer announce changes to their focus?

 

[Foxbat121]



Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength /forum/post/16478510


Has Pioneer announced replacement models for the 05 & 07 yet?


AJ

None that I'm aware of.

 

[Foxbat121]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/16478548


I thought they came out in the last six months? Also, did Pioneer announce changes to their focus?

Yeah, they dumped DVD/BD player business to a Pioneer-Sharp joint venture.

 

[graphicguy]

Pioneer usually announces their new models sometime around late June-mid July. They normally hit the street sometime around Sept-Oct.


Pure speculation, but they also usually stick with their flagship AVR for more than one model run (in this case the SC 09, Susano). More speculation that the new models will have multi-channel PQLS, over the current 2-channel only PQLS to coincide with their multi-channel PQLS BD players, which are just hitting the street. Dolby IIz, maybe? Who knows?


Considering how much time (3 years) and R&D they've invested into ICEamp development, I don't see them changing that any time soon for their top end Elites.


It is true that the current crop of SCs seem to be getting scarcer, though. I can't imagine Pioneer cranking up any further manufacturing on them, either.


Pioneer did indeed announce they were getting out of the plasma business, with most of their tech and people going over to Panasonic. It also appears that BD manufacturing/R&D will be a joint venture with Sharp after the BD 09 (which just came to market), and the BDP 320/BDB 23 FD run their course in the marketplace. The BDP51 can still be found, too.

 

[M Code]

Pioneer reported a very significant loss > $1 billion...

Car audio biz way off both OE and after-market, DVD drive biz under distress, closed out their plasma division...


Major emphasis now is on their survival not new products..


Below is a short summary of their conditions they are applying to the Japanese government for some bail-out $. Note that Honda did make a major $ investment as well.

"The troubled electronics maker said its net losses ballooned to 130.53 billion yen (1.36 billion dollars) in the year to March, up from 19.04 billion the previous year. It expects to lose 83 billion yen this year.


The company blamed the poor performance on slumping sales of car audio products, plasma displays and DVD drives.


In February it announced it would quit the television business, saying there was no prospect of a turnaround in the current climate.


It is slashing 10,000 jobs worldwide and shutting down its plasma display production facilities in the United States and Britain to focus on car electronics instead.


The group expects to book restructuring costs of 47 billion yen this year in response to what it described as "extremely challenging conditions".


Pioneer, which is 14.3 percent owned by Sharp Corp., is considering applying for public funds to help it through the slump. It also plans to sell a 6.5 percent stake to Honda Motor to raise 2.5 billion yen in new funds.


Other Japanese high-tech giants have also been badly affected by the global economic slowdown, which has sapped demand for their products and sent the yen soaring, eating away at their export earnings."

 

[WiWavelength]



Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy /forum/post/16479176


Pure speculation, but they also usually stick with their flagship AVR for more than one model run (in this case the SC 09, Susano). More speculation that the new models will have multi-channel PQLS, over the current 2-channel only PQLS to coincide with their multi-channel PQLS BD players, which are just hitting the street.

Yeah, multichannel PQLS in the just released 320 & 23FD BD players is what prompted my interest in new model AVRs, since Pioneer currently has nothing in its AVR line up that can take advantage of multichannel PQLS. Unless current SC series AVRs can be upgraded via firmware, multichannel PQLS in the new BD players may be all for naught. Unfortunately, Pioneer in its current form may not last long enough to bring to market any new AVRs to serve as dance partners for the new BD players w/ multichannel PQLS.


BTW, the top shelf 09FD BD player has two channel, not multichannel PQLS, correct?


AJ

 

[Ray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code /forum/post/16479656


Pioneer reported a very significant loss > $1 billion...

Car audio biz way off both OE and after-market, DVD drive biz under distress, closed out their plasma division...


Major emphasis now is on their survival not new products..


Below is a short summary of their conditions they are applying to the Japanese government for some bail-out $. Note that Honda did make a major $ investment as well.

"The troubled electronics maker said its net losses ballooned to 130.53 billion yen (1.36 billion dollars) in the year to March, up from 19.04 billion the previous year. It expects to lose 83 billion yen this year.


The company blamed the poor performance on slumping sales of car audio products, plasma displays and DVD drives.


In February it announced it would quit the television business, saying there was no prospect of a turnaround in the current climate.


It is slashing 10,000 jobs worldwide and shutting down its plasma display production facilities in the United States and Britain to focus on car electronics instead.


The group expects to book restructuring costs of 47 billion yen this year in response to what it described as "extremely challenging conditions".


Pioneer, which is 14.3 percent owned by Sharp Corp., is considering applying for public funds to help it through the slump. It also plans to sell a 6.5 percent stake to Honda Motor to raise 2.5 billion yen in new funds.


Other Japanese high-tech giants have also been badly affected by the global economic slowdown, which has sapped demand for their products and sent the yen soaring, eating away at their export earnings."

Very good analysis and market research M Code. We very well may be witnessing the best receivers Pioneer has manufactured or will build with the 09, 07 and 05 SC series since the mighty Pioneer SX-1980 which arguably was the best receiver ever made. IMOHO when I witnessed the power,sheer beauty and joy the 1980 brought to my father when I was a young lad I can think of no other audio piece regardless of price that can measure up besides the legendary Klipschorn. Two legends that in my mind will live in infamy.

 

[phantom52]

If you look at the dedicated thread for the SC05/07 you will find many users who have switched from their previous brand loyalties to these two. So there must be something very special about these SC's. Are they as good as previous Elite models, I have no idea because I have never owned a Pioneer receiver, but there has to be a very good reason for so many buying these new SC's.

 

[graphicguy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength /forum/post/16480793


Yeah, multichannel PQLS in the just released 320 & 23FD BD players is what prompted my interest in new model AVRs, since Pioneer currently has nothing in its AVR line up that can take advantage of multichannel PQLS. Unless current SC series AVRs can be upgraded via firmware, multichannel PQLS in the new BD players may be all for naught. Unfortunately, Pioneer in its current form may not last long enough to bring to market any new AVRs to serve as dance partners for the new BD players w/ multichannel PQLS.


BTW, the top shelf 09FD BD player has two channel, not multichannel PQLS, correct?


AJ

AJ....I'm not really sure on the PQLS implementation on the 09FD BD. I haven't really followed its development, nor rollout. Might want to pose that question in their BDP thread. I think I'm pretty well set right now on BD players. I've got a BDP51, and a PS3 (which I use mostly for music streaming) that my son has set up to do his gaming "thing" as back up for BD. On top of that, I've got an OPPO for multi-channel music playback over HDMI. Long and short of it, I'm swimming in disk players that are all used differently.


Pioneer's not one to do much in the way of FW updates. That said, their Elites are operationally solid, right out of the box, too. I know some would want to change how the Elite AVRs do this or that. But, overall there's not much need for FW updates.


Their FW updates on the BD players are a different story. They've announced at least 2 (maybe more) FW updates for my BDP51.


RAY....The SC is my 3rd Pioneer AVR. The 2nd in the Elite line. I go and try different brands every once in awhile. But, eventually, I always come back to the Elites. And, the SCs are by far the best AVRs I've ever had in my system. I don't know what the future brings for Pioneer. Hopefully, they pull out of the current CE malaise. Even with the uncertainty, I'm still toying with the idea of adding their flagship, the Susano SC 09. Their AVRs are bulletproof. If Pioneer shut their doors tomorrow, I'd still know that I would get many years of service out of my gear.