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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so this is somewhat old news but I just stumbled on a video from CES last year where Pioneer had stated that they had "eliminated ALL idling luminance"; I am sure you still remember the never produced, 10g Pioneers. Anyway, it just really gets to me that we already have the technology to create a display with what everyone is looking for, perfect blacks (well as close to perfect as to make it indistinguishable to the eye) and nobody is doing anything with the technology.


With all the problems with LCD, OLED (in its current state), and other tech's, here is Pioneer, with the way to eliminate all of this "contrast ratio" arguing and Plasma vs. LCD debate (even though there is not much to debate with current LCD's). Also, even though Plasma enjoys many advantages over LCD, most consumers and salespeople have been so misinformed about plasma that they continue to push LCD's making Plasma an almost dying, albeit superior technology.


In this situation it seems as though plasma is going to need a BIG leap forward to stay in the game, a startlingly clear advantage, like NO idling luminance, which already exists. So what's the deal, why are none of the big companies interested in purchasing or in some way licensing the tech from Pioneer to create a display that will end all of the picture quality arguing and also save the current plasma TV market?
 

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Hi,


I hear you and agree mostly - it is a complete mystery what Pioneer will be doing with all that tech - one hopes they have done a secret deal behind the scenes with other companies who either wanted to buy the tech or use it under some sort of royalty. I was patiently waiting for the G10's and had to buy a G9 as that was the only remaining option.


Pioneer have really handled the whole Kuro affair so biblically badly, no-one will ever take them seriously again for HDTV's again from an investment point of view. The Pioneer engineers may be geniuses but the same simply cannot be said for the rest of the management team who handled the affair. It is very sad to know the tech is out there and ready to go but it is just mothballed instead collecting dust.



Bazzy!
 

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Can't wait to see which 2010 set takes the cake calibrated, looks like everywhere I read they will be concentrating on black levels for plasmas and LCD's. We haven't even seen the OLED's that may be coming out in 2010 either.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/16909457


the tech from Pioneer to create a display that will end all of the picture quality arguing and also save the current plasma TV market?

Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16909878


Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.

Hi,


It does seem that way - ultimately blacks are probably the most single important factor for a number of reasons and is obviously something a lot more difficult to perfect or improve upon than other things - The new Samsung B850 (buzzing issue aside) apparently can do everything just as good if not better than a Kuro except for black levels which are still shockingly poor by comparison. With the standard bearer out of the picture and no one to catch up to anymore, one has to ask the question, will brands really bother to drastically improve black levels significantly? A part of me thinks not as they would want to invest minimum money into R&D at a time of recession and try to make up for as much loss as possible with the next gen of sets - they will focus more on aesthetics and interactive features to lure purchasers with wow factor that grab the attention and create high desire at point of sale. I hope I am wrong but remember, its never the engineers who call the shots at these big companies - its the bean counters who probably know as much about HDTV's as my great grandma!



Bazzy!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrgamer /forum/post/16909596


Can't wait to see which 2010 set takes the cake calibrated, looks like everywhere I read they will be concentrating on black levels for plasmas and LCD's. We haven't even seen the OLED's that may be coming out in 2010 either.

There will be no OLEDs in 2010.. not ones worth buying anyways. Anyone that expects to buy a 40"+ OLED for under 10k in 2010 is smoking the good stuff
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The above video does not demonstrate problems inherent to plasma, just straight ahead video processing problems and/or bandwidth limitations. This would be true for most LCD's as well. Detail in the blacks, ok, Panasonic does a better job, that's fine but the Kuro will still have more "impact" to the typical consumer who will notice the richer colors.


Yes, the tech isn't completely perfect but for the most of us black level is at the top of the list of important video attributes. Having owned a few LCD's, in the sub 37" category I would still go with an SD CRT over a full 1080p LCD (and have) as LCD's are too bothersome to watch. This may not be the case for some of you out there but "immersion" into a movie becomes more and more difficult with increasingly poorer black levels. Also, yes, I am one of those people that is slightly bothered by projected film (at theaters) because the black level is not as good as my direct view CRT's.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/16918465


The above video does not demonstrate problems inherent to plasma, just straight ahead video processing problems and/or bandwidth limitations.

Notice how the audience comments that Pioneer has more noise in the picture and I'm pretty sure that also gradation problems come from CLEAR-driving. These problems can't be fixed with external high end scaler.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/16918465

Detail in the blacks, ok, Panasonic does a better job, that's fine but the Kuro will still have more "impact" to the typical consumer who will notice the richer colors.

.

Actually, It doesn't.


I was interested in learning about these claims when hdguru first claimed it.


turns out, If calibrated correctly, the panny will not give more shadow detail than a 9G kuro.

From what I have read , If this Panasonic has a flat gamma curve, there is no such thing as more shadow detail. And that Panasonic has made the gamma higher on the lower end. The result is more detail in darker material. However it is NOT correct.

And that a properly setup Kuro will have the correct amount of shadow detail per the source material.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16909878


Check out Panasonic VX vs Pioneer KURO video and you might notice that blacks aren't the only flaw with current tech. Better plasma blacks gets washed out in bright showrooms, so manufacturers should focus more on bright room contrast.

I dont agree. They should focus again on Absolut Blacks. This is what we wait for. Not increased contrast. That is boring news. Absolut Blacks will revitalize the plasma industri.


No offense..
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16925533


Yeah, improving dark room black levels really helped Pioneer with their plasma business.

Pioneers failure has nothing to do with thier black levels.


But it does have ALOT to do with thier TV's still reigning as the current champ even a year after thier date of release.


The A/V community wants high contrast. Thats just the way it is.

(And by contrast, I dont mean mediocre blacks and eye burning brightness).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 /forum/post/16926900


Pioneers failure has nothing to do with thier black levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/16926900


Absolut Blacks will revitalize the plasma industri.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16925533


Yeah, improving dark room black levels really helped Pioneer with their plasma business.

I think you missed the point. Better dark room blacks didn't save Pioneer and wouldn't save any other manufacturer. The real market is outside A/V community.
 

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I think it primarily had to do with specifics such as economy, price range, availability in most stores. If the economy were good maybe more would be willing to spend more. If they had a standard, mid, high, and elite brand of models and sizes from 40" and above that range from 1200 on up to 4g for the elites they would clearly would have more profit to continue. At least they released a standard of excellence which will take quite a while to beat. If they could have penetrated more places such as the mass market stores and had there sets side by side with the standard grade sets they could have made a ton just by placing them side by side next to the competition. Alas there story is different and this is the last year to support the champ.............maybe unless the Pioneer crew dispersed to the far regions of the TV universe.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16927034


I think you missed the point. Better dark room blacks didn't save Pioneer and wouldn't save any other manufacturer. The real market is outside A/V community.

Pioneer didnt do well because of many reasons.

bad advertising, warranty scare tactics, high prices, etc.


And in a bad economy like this, there just arent enough buyers that are looking for the best picture and willing to pay for it. Most people want a cheaper set.

And alot of the people who were actually willing to pay top dollar for the best, were steered in the wrong direction by misinformed salesmen.


Panasonic should buy up Pioneers Extreme contrast concept and fuga tech and work on implementing it on a line-up like the neo-pdps.


If they could apply these things too thier Plasmas, Then we are talking about a Flat-panel with perfect absolute zero blacks, the best motion of any flat-panel, the best processing, and the best contrast.

And if they could do this and keep the prices like the neo-pdps currently are, then holy moly!!!

I dont know why anyone would buy any other high end panel.
 

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When you talk about best contrast, you talk about dark room contrast. TVs aren't sold in dark rooms. I have no idea why casual "uneducated" shopper would pick KURO because of black levels. You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16928602


When you talk about best contrast, you talk about dark room contrast. TVs aren't sold in dark rooms. I have no idea why casual "uneducated" shopper would pick KURO because of black levels. You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.

dark room contrast??

lol.

Spoken truly like someone who has no experience with a high end plasma in a lighted room.


When I walk thru BB today and see the new pannys next to the LCD's, they are definitly holding thier own.

And they have much more to offer than just brightness.


And for the record, I (and most A/V enthusiats I know of) could care less what "casual shoppers" would do or what torch mode trick they would fall for.


Let them fall for the "Sexy and slim" sales pitch if they want.


this is why panasonic needs to advertise more to the "casual shopper". Maybe they will get a little education on the subject before falling for a second tier "LED" TV when they could have gotten something with a much better picture for probably less money.


By the way, What is an "LED TV" anyway???

Its not some new type of TV like samsungs making it out to be. I cant believe people are falling for this.

"LED" is just an LCD with different backlighting technique. Same ole same ole.


If you got to the samsung site, they put "LED" as a whole categorie as if it is some new television technolgy.


Reminds me of a guy I work with that bought a new sammy LCD.

I askd him what kind he got and he said "ITs one of those new LED tvs", I said "you mean LCD???", he said "no, its an LED TV, they are better than LCD".

you should really read the fine print before thinking that LED is a different TV type than LCD.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpbandaid /forum/post/16928602


You can talk about processing or motion resolution, normal people will talk about how sexy and slim their new Samsung LED TV is.

What??? I know a lot of people with flat panels. Not one has ever bragged about how slim & sexy it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 /forum/post/16928248


And in a bad economy like this, there just arent enough buyers that are looking for the best picture and willing to pay for it.

Ain't that the truth. I'm trying to sell my Kuro (going front projection) and it is tough selling a high end tv in this market.
 
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